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Archie The Fink

Started by daren, May 06, 2016, 04:56:40 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

daren

#15

Quote from: SAGG on May 23, 2016, 10:28:34 PM
But, just wondering: Doesn't Betty and Ronica enable Archie to do his dirt by quite frankly overlooking his behavior as they continue to forgive his transgressions? Plus, Ronica cheats as much on Archie as he does her. I've always suspected that Betty would drop any boy she was going with in a New York Second if Archie suddenly asked her to go steady. I think Betty only goes out with other boys because she eventually believes Archie will someday come to his senses and see she's the only girl for him, and then she'll quit them. In the meantime, Betty refuses to be a girl that hopelessly pines for Archie by waiting by the phone while missing out on dating boys. What do you guys think?


I agree about Betty, as for Ronnie, the stories paint her cheating in a bad light much more than than they do Archie's, so he's more of a pain. I mean we obviously are supposed to think of him as the bad guy often, but not nearly as much as with Veronica.

Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 08:53:01 PM
I liked the original title. It was quite apt.  ;D


Yeah, it's hard to think of a good word for this side of Archie that isn't obscene.

Quote
I just saw this thread and I'm disappointed I didn't join in the fun sooner.



It shouldn't be too hard to find panels of Archie being a clod.


:o 

daren

Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 10:57:33 PM


Jughead is more of an enabler than Betty and Veronica since he tries to help Archie get away with his shenanigans.





In fact I'm almost posting this in the wrong thread.

DeCarlo Rules

#17
Quote from: daren on May 24, 2016, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 10:57:33 PM


Jughead is more of an enabler than Betty and Veronica since he tries to help Archie get away with his shenanigans.





In fact I'm almost posting this in the wrong thread.

JUGHEAD has to take it on the chin for being responsible? He's not directly involved, so he can only try to influence. When he tries to give Archie good advice, he usually ignores it, so all he can do is try to help him out of the messes he knows he's going to get himself in. Just because he gets some small enjoyment out of watching Veronica do a slow burn, realizing that she could just walk out of Archie's life but doesn't... he's just finding the humor in the situation where he can. He's got no control over what any of them choose to do or to put up with. Betty could end the shenanigans. So could Veronica. Not to mention Archie. This is a case of "it takes three to tango", and any one of them could decide to end the situation at any time simply by voluntarily quitting. Jughead can't do a thing to change anything, since appealing to logic or reason on anyone's part isn't going to work and he knows it.


No, if we're talking about Archie's bad behavior, Betty and Veronica can be and are both enablers and victims of the bad behavior at the same time. They could walk away if Archie refused to clean up his act, but they don't.

Thrillho

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 24, 2016, 10:20:55 AM
Quote from: daren on May 24, 2016, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 10:57:33 PM


Jughead is more of an enabler than Betty and Veronica since he tries to help Archie get away with his shenanigans.





In fact I'm almost posting this in the wrong thread.

JUGHEAD has to take it on the chin for being responsible? He's not directly involved, so he can only try to influence. When he tries to give Archie good advice, he usually ignores it, so all he can do is try to help him out of the messes he knows he's going to get himself in. Just because he gets some small enjoyment out of watching Veronica do a slow burn, realizing that she could just walk out of Archie's life but doesn't... he's just finding the humor in the situation where he can. He's got no control over what any of them choose to do or to put up with. Betty could end the shenanigans. So could Veronica. Not to mention Archie. This is a case of "it takes three to tango", and any one of them could decide to end the situation at any time simply by voluntarily quitting. Jughead can't do a thing to change anything, since appealing to logic or reason on anyone's part isn't going to work and he knows it.

Jughead may not be able to influence their actions but he does go out of his way to help Archie get away with just about anything, sometimes out of loyalty or for a price. There's the Gaslight story where Jughead helps Archie to convince Veronica she's crazy so Archie can get away with something, I don't remember what he did. The onus obviously isn't on him but he isn't uninvolved either.


Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 24, 2016, 10:20:55 AM
No, if we're talking about Archie's bad behavior, Betty and Veronica can be and are both enablers and victims of the bad behavior at the same time. They could walk away if Archie refused to clean up his act, but they don't.

Examples were posted of them dumping Archie, it just has no effect since there's a reset button for almost every story.

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: Thrillho on May 24, 2016, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 24, 2016, 10:20:55 AM
Quote from: daren on May 24, 2016, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 10:57:33 PM


Jughead is more of an enabler than Betty and Veronica since he tries to help Archie get away with his shenanigans.





In fact I'm almost posting this in the wrong thread.

JUGHEAD has to take it on the chin for being responsible? He's not directly involved, so he can only try to influence. When he tries to give Archie good advice, he usually ignores it, so all he can do is try to help him out of the messes he knows he's going to get himself in. Just because he gets some small enjoyment out of watching Veronica do a slow burn, realizing that she could just walk out of Archie's life but doesn't... he's just finding the humor in the situation where he can. He's got no control over what any of them choose to do or to put up with. Betty could end the shenanigans. So could Veronica. Not to mention Archie. This is a case of "it takes three to tango", and any one of them could decide to end the situation at any time simply by voluntarily quitting. Jughead can't do a thing to change anything, since appealing to logic or reason on anyone's part isn't going to work and he knows it.

Jughead may not be able to influence their actions but he does go out of his way to help Archie get away with just about anything, sometimes out of loyalty or for a price. There's the Gaslight story where Jughead helps Archie to convince Veronica she's crazy so Archie can get away with something, I don't remember what he did. The onus obviously isn't on him but he isn't uninvolved either.


Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 24, 2016, 10:20:55 AM
No, if we're talking about Archie's bad behavior, Betty and Veronica can be and are both enablers and victims of the bad behavior at the same time. They could walk away if Archie refused to clean up his act, but they don't.

Examples were posted of them dumping Archie, it just has no effect since there's a reset button for almost every story.

Jughead's actions don't have the effect of condoning Archie's behavior though. He's resigned to the idea of "Archie's going to do what Archie's going to do", so really the only thing that concerns him is his own motivation. That might just be some small enjoyment he gets from seeing Veronica get irritated, or protecting his own interests by helping Archie (because he needs to depend on Archie to borrow money from him, etc.) -- or just that by default he's got a closer connection to Archie than he does to any of the girls Archie dates. Besides which, if he doesn't at least make some comment or observation about the situation, he might as well not be there. There's no point in him being in any story (or gag panel) if he's just going to stand there and do or say nothing. I guess they could have a story where Jughead gets all morally upright on Archie and puts him down for his jerkwad behavior with girls, but like you say -- reset button.

Thrillho

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 24, 2016, 03:36:11 PM
Jughead's actions don't have the effect of condoning Archie's behavior though. He's resigned to the idea of "Archie's going to do what Archie's going to do", so really the only thing that concerns him is his own motivation. That might just be some small enjoyment he gets from seeing Veronica get irritated, or protecting his own interests by helping Archie (because he needs to depend on Archie to borrow money from him, etc.) -- or just that by default he's got a closer connection to Archie than he does to any of the girls Archie dates. Besides which, if he doesn't at least make some comment or observation about the situation, he might as well not be there. There's no point in him being in any story (or gag panel) if he's just going to stand there and do or say nothing. I guess they could have a story where Jughead gets all morally upright on Archie and puts him down for his jerkwad behavior with girls, but like you say -- reset button.

If Jughead is agreeing to help Archie pull the wool over someone's eyes, I think that is condoning his behavior, but I also think we're reading too much into this, as the Archie gang acts on the writers' whims. Jughead's involvement is part of the joke, otherwise, like you said, he might as well not be there.

Ultimately, I think Archie is responsible for his bad behavior. I don't think it matters if Betty and Veronica still want to date him regardless of his behavior. Archie isn't a dog (debatable, I know), he's capable of thinking and reason, and should be a better person when it comes to dating, he's pretty decent otherwise.



I think this is Jughead's main agenda, get Archie away from girls.



DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: Thrillho on May 24, 2016, 10:34:45 PM
Ultimately, I think Archie is responsible for his bad behavior. I don't think it matters if Betty and Veronica still want to date him regardless of his behavior. Archie isn't a dog (debatable, I know), he's capable of thinking and reason, and should be a better person when it comes to dating, he's pretty decent otherwise.


Ultimately, the writers are responsible for his bad behavior... because an Archie who is girl-crazy gets himself into all sorts of trouble that leads to comedic situations.


And it seems that the writers' characterization of Archie is that he's INcapable of thinking and reasoning when it comes to girls. He can be a decent guy in one story, and then (reset) a fink in the next. Inconsistency seems to be built-in to the concept of classic Archie. He gets away with it because nobody takes a cartoon character too seriously... it's more important whether he's funny or not. When you come right down to it, his inconsistent behavioral swings between "pretty decent" and "fink" aren't believable in a real person (or at least, what's not believable is that there wouldn't be personal consequences to that kind of behavior -- not the temporary kind that result in a gag to end the story on, but lasting consequences in a realistic world where there are no 'reset buttons'). That's largely why a more realistic, consistent and continuity-bound Archie (which is what the reboot seems to be aiming at) doesn't interest me.

daren

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 25, 2016, 03:08:19 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 24, 2016, 10:34:45 PM
Ultimately, I think Archie is responsible for his bad behavior. I don't think it matters if Betty and Veronica still want to date him regardless of his behavior. Archie isn't a dog (debatable, I know), he's capable of thinking and reason, and should be a better person when it comes to dating, he's pretty decent otherwise.


Ultimately, the writers are responsible for his bad behavior... because an Archie who is girl-crazy gets himself into all sorts of trouble that leads to comedic situations.


It's the other way around. Archie's a kind of psychic vampire who makes the writers do what he wants. Thats how he's managed to stay the star of the whole series, otherwise it would have turned into the Betty and Veronica show long ago.

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: daren on May 25, 2016, 03:14:02 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 25, 2016, 03:08:19 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 24, 2016, 10:34:45 PM
Ultimately, I think Archie is responsible for his bad behavior. I don't think it matters if Betty and Veronica still want to date him regardless of his behavior. Archie isn't a dog (debatable, I know), he's capable of thinking and reason, and should be a better person when it comes to dating, he's pretty decent otherwise.


Ultimately, the writers are responsible for his bad behavior... because an Archie who is girl-crazy gets himself into all sorts of trouble that leads to comedic situations.


It's the other way around. Archie's a kind of psychic vampire who makes the writers do what he wants. Thats how he's managed to stay the star of the whole series, otherwise it would have turned into the Betty and Veronica show long ago.


Does anybody really like Archie that much except the publisher and editors of ACP? Apparently they must, since the digests are overwhelming Archie stories with Archie's name in big letters in the title.


For me, it's the Sabrina and Josie show, but since they insist on not publishing too many of those stories, then I guess it's the Betty and Veronica show by default. Overall I like Betty better as a character, but as a comic book series VERONICA is superior to BETTY.


Since getting into Archie Comics, my interest in Jughead has grown a lot, though. At first it was just Trula Twyst that attracted my interest, but as I started to read more and more Craig Boldman/Rex Lindsey stories I really began to appreciate him more. That's still my favorite Jughead, but that was before I realized there are many different Jugheads (but all of them still more interesting than Archie).


I guess somebody really should write an essay here somewhere extolling the virtues (as they see them) of Archie and why he's interesting. To me virtually every other character within his orbit (at least the teenagers) is more interesting than Archie himself (well, maybe not Moose or Ethel, but they're not that much less interesting either).

Thrillho

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 25, 2016, 03:37:07 AM

Does anybody really like Archie that much except the publisher and editors of ACP? Apparently they must, since the digests are overwhelming Archie stories with Archie's name in big letters in the title...

...I guess somebody really should write an essay here somewhere extolling the virtues (as they see them) of Archie and why he's interesting. To me virtually every other character within his orbit (at least the teenagers) is more interesting than Archie himself (well, maybe not Moose or Ethel, but they're not that much less interesting either).

Hahaha, when we had the favorite character feature on our profiles, I never saw anyone put Archie.

I think Midge is the least interesting of all the characters, total MacGuffin.

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: Thrillho on May 25, 2016, 12:23:44 PM
I think Midge is the least interesting of all the characters, total MacGuffin.


The interesting thing about her is that guys seem to be interested in her. In the more modern stories, that seems to have been functionally reduced to just Reggie. She's pretty much a complete mystery and a blank slate as far as her internal character and motivations. What is it about her that makes her worth suffering beating after beating by Moose, to Reggie? I mean, it would be a lot easier and safer to pursue B&V or some other girl, so why live dangerously? Probably there were as many different takes on that as there were writers, but none of them really felt strongly enough about it to make her a major character in a story, or even to explain, exactly, how Reggie rationalizes it to himself. Depending on the writer, she seemed to be either seriously interested, or just mildly annoyed but slightly flattered at the same time by Reggie's attention. Since Midge never got more than the sketchiest of parts in the story, we'll never know.

Thrillho

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 25, 2016, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 25, 2016, 12:23:44 PM
I think Midge is the least interesting of all the characters, total MacGuffin.


The interesting thing about her is that guys seem to be interested in her. In the more modern stories, that seems to have been functionally reduced to just Reggie. She's pretty much a complete mystery and a blank slate as far as her internal character and motivations. What is it about her that makes her worth suffering beating after beating by Moose, to Reggie? I mean, it would be a lot easier and safer to pursue B&V or some other girl, so why live dangerously? Probably there were as many different takes on that as there were writers, but none of them really felt strongly enough about it to make her a major character in a story, or even to explain, exactly, how Reggie rationalizes it to himself. Depending on the writer, she seemed to be either seriously interested, or just mildly annoyed but slightly flattered at the same time by Reggie's attention. Since Midge never got more than the sketchiest of parts in the story, we'll never know.

When Pop Tate named menu items after his regulars, Midge was the peanut butter and jelly sandwich, the most basic of sandwiches. That tells me all I need to know about Midge.

60sBettyandReggie

Quote from: Thrillho on May 25, 2016, 12:23:44 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 25, 2016, 03:37:07 AM

Does anybody really like Archie that much except the publisher and editors of ACP? Apparently they must, since the digests are overwhelming Archie stories with Archie's name in big letters in the title...

...I guess somebody really should write an essay here somewhere extolling the virtues (as they see them) of Archie and why he's interesting. To me virtually every other character within his orbit (at least the teenagers) is more interesting than Archie himself (well, maybe not Moose or Ethel, but they're not that much less interesting either).

Hahaha, when we had the favorite character feature on our profiles, I never saw anyone put Archie.

I think Midge is the least interesting of all the characters, total MacGuffin.


I can only remember two people on the old forum who said Archie was their favorite.
I think he is an alright guy, and if it wasn't for the way he treats Betty he would be a great guy.

spazaru

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 25, 2016, 03:37:07 AM
Quote from: daren on May 25, 2016, 03:14:02 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 25, 2016, 03:08:19 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 24, 2016, 10:34:45 PM
Ultimately, I think Archie is responsible for his bad behavior. I don't think it matters if Betty and Veronica still want to date him regardless of his behavior. Archie isn't a dog (debatable, I know), he's capable of thinking and reason, and should be a better person when it comes to dating, he's pretty decent otherwise.


Ultimately, the writers are responsible for his bad behavior... because an Archie who is girl-crazy gets himself into all sorts of trouble that leads to comedic situations.


It's the other way around. Archie's a kind of psychic vampire who makes the writers do what he wants. Thats how he's managed to stay the star of the whole series, otherwise it would have turned into the Betty and Veronica show long ago.


Does anybody really like Archie that much except the publisher and editors of ACP? Apparently they must, since the digests are overwhelming Archie stories with Archie's name in big letters in the title.


For me, it's the Sabrina and Josie show, but since they insist on not publishing too many of those stories, then I guess it's the Betty and Veronica show by default. Overall I like Betty better as a character, but as a comic book series VERONICA is superior to BETTY.


Since getting into Archie Comics, my interest in Jughead has grown a lot, though. At first it was just Trula Twyst that attracted my interest, but as I started to read more and more Craig Boldman/Rex Lindsey stories I really began to appreciate him more. That's still my favorite Jughead, but that was before I realized there are many different Jugheads (but all of them still more interesting than Archie).


I guess somebody really should write an essay here somewhere extolling the virtues (as they see them) of Archie and why he's interesting. To me virtually every other character within his orbit (at least the teenagers) is more interesting than Archie himself (well, maybe not Moose or Ethel, but they're not that much less interesting either).

I like him.  I'm not going to write an essay.  I really don't get all the Archie hate.  As I've said before, he's thoughtless and imperfect, just like real teenagers.  That to me is interesting.

DeCarlo Rules

#29
Quote from: Thrillho on May 25, 2016, 01:50:21 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 25, 2016, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 25, 2016, 12:23:44 PM
I think Midge is the least interesting of all the characters, total MacGuffin.


The interesting thing about her is that guys seem to be interested in her. In the more modern stories, that seems to have been functionally reduced to just Reggie. She's pretty much a complete mystery and a blank slate as far as her internal character and motivations. What is it about her that makes her worth suffering beating after beating by Moose, to Reggie? I mean, it would be a lot easier and safer to pursue B&V or some other girl, so why live dangerously? Probably there were as many different takes on that as there were writers, but none of them really felt strongly enough about it to make her a major character in a story, or even to explain, exactly, how Reggie rationalizes it to himself. Depending on the writer, she seemed to be either seriously interested, or just mildly annoyed but slightly flattered at the same time by Reggie's attention. Since Midge never got more than the sketchiest of parts in the story, we'll never know.

When Pop Tate named menu items after his regulars, Midge was the peanut butter and jelly sandwich, the most basic of sandwiches. That tells me all I need to know about Midge.

PB&J isn't the most basic of sandwiches (that would be a sandwich with only a single ingredient between the slices of bread, like a peanut butter sandwich, a grilled cheese sandwich, or a plain hamburger with nothing on it on a bun).

If Midge were a sandwich, she'd be a mystery sandwich that was priced much higher than other sandwiches, causing you to wonder just what was in it that would make it worth the price.

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