Okay, just now saw this topic. My apologies for using the shoutbox for wrestling discussions.

Anyway... I think Batista gets a bad rap. I mean, the only matches I can think of where Batista was in the worse match of the PPV or night was with an over the hill, past his prime Booker T--who didn't like Batista and vice versa.

Anyway, RAW THOUGHTS.

1. Well...it's Jericho. I'm not going to pass judgement yet. I mean, it was disappointing with it being predictable and Jericho just playing to the crowd, but it's obviously going somewhere. I'd hate for the "IT BEGINS" thing to just be worthless as it was pretty well made and who is "she".

2. Kane. Kane with supernatural powers= WIN. A great story with John Cena, the bastion of all that is good and just in the WWE, being forced to deal with the fans who hate him by a demented psychopath. Also, it looks like Kane is back to being intelligent and moved past the Edge, Bearer, Benny Hill stuff in his last time as a heel. Still...I don't like that he burnt Hornswoggle's home down.

3. Diva match. Can we please just have the Bellas hang out with Del Rio. They're both bad, get out of place, and can't wrestle. Nice moonsault by Eve (better than Lita's horrible ones). I'll never get the hate on Eve from the smarts: she's beautiful, good on the mic when given a chance (with Miz and Beth) and can actually wrestle. I still think the WWE should try and build the diva division around her.

4. CM Punk vs Ziggler. Aw, can't we just let them have great matches without interference. And I think this storyline with CM Punk and Johnny Ace shows where most WWE big storylines fail...they pick the wrong guy for the part. Johnny Ace has no charisma at all. NONE. CM Punk is carrying this by his sheer awesome. I mean, yeah, he sounds like Super Dave Osbourne (yeah, I'm old...)...but the guy is just not great on the mic or acting--in his prime muchless now. Still great match, and let's hope Punk can keep it up. But if there was just someone else in Johnny Ace's place this storyline would be sooooo much better!

5. Brodius Clay. Okay, this is late WCW level of stupid. Advertising something and not delivering....for about two months now.

6. R-Truth and the Miz. It's hard not to like it when a heel has to deal with some crazy face hounding them in the shadows. Heck, that was the only time Chavo was fun to watch. Plus, it's nice to see Little Jimmy and R-Truth have made up.

7. Main Event. I liked it for what it was. It wasn't special, but it did develop some storylines (Kane wanting Cena to embrace the hate and Big Show's anger at being the shortest reign champion)

8. Michael Cole. Wow. This is the first time in years where I can say this...he wasn't so bad. I mean, not good, but I didn't want to mute the TV or change the channel to get back my strength to go back and watch RAW. He wasn't as over the top and annoying as he's been the last two years. Lawler wasn't too bad either. A night where the RAW announce team is not absolutely horrible is a good day.

Honestly, I think you are looking at this from a smark point of view.  Whether you hate them or not, Hall and Nash represented the paradigm shift in the entire business.  Without them, none of the success that followed, in both WCW and WWE would have occurred.  WWE points to ECW as helping spark the change, but that's propaganda.  They were trying to catch up to what WCW had done and the heel/face blurring of the line that Hall and Nash created resulted in the Stone Cold Steve Austin storyline and the DX storylines, which is what made the WWE profitable again.

I'll agree with you that Nash and Hall caused as shift as they created a buzz that attracted WWF fans to WCW because "Hey, what's Razor Ramon doing in WCW" But the WWE did use more ECW ideas. They started to cuss, more brawls, how they shown women. It was the same attitude. Stone Cold and DX came more from the ECW motif. Personally, I hated this period as all the matches were pretty horrible...like most ECW matches.

But I think it was a desperation act to help catch up to WCW after having the gimmicks rule the WWF. And I don't hate Nash or Hall...but they did a lot of harm. I mean, they were horrible backstage to the point that Goldberg was so angry one night he kicked Bret Hart into retirement. They vetoed ideas, never defended belts, showed up in no condition to compete, and were so lazy that in a powerbomb match...Nash won without powerbombing someone.

They did good, but they did bad. Real bad.

You know who is also pretty weak in the ring?  Hulk Hogan.  But you can't say anything bad about him as far as he what he did for the business and expect to be taken seriously.  This is why I find the comparison to Batista flat out strange.  Batista can't work without being severely carried or even talk on the mic (which Nash is one of the best at), so the only argument you can have is "was he good for business" in a comparsion against Nash.  Nash blows him out of the water in that regard.  Doesn't matter if he wasn't a draw before he blew up or wasn't a big draw after his series of injuries or whatever, Batista has never had that level of influence of success and never will.

Actually, Hogan could put on a good match. I bought the WWF Main Event Three disc set and I'm watching the first disc and thinking, "Wow, look at Hogan go" I mean, he was actually a competant wrestler doing moves I'd never seen...then as you continue on his move set gets more and more limited to...well, what we all are used to. I'm guessing because of the schedule he was on and he could get the same reaction using simple moves...he cut back.

Batista is good on the mic. And he is good in the ring for the most part. Batista during his face turn and championship was great on the mic the way he would look and how he would sound or just look off. And his later work was great with him being this mountain of muscle...who acted like a cowardly 90 pounder the way he'd avoid conflict, whine, or complain. He also took a page out of Nash by using hand signals to the get the fans involved.

Batista is a better worker than Nash because Nash is lazy. It's really hard to grade Nash because his best matches were with Shawn and Bret, who could carry anyone to a five star match, and--he never went all out on his own. Batista added to his move set and had great matches with Rey Mysterio, Triple H, HBK, Chris Benoit and several others. His matches with Cena were real surprising because his Summerslam match with Cena was a four star match.

But yeah, Nash drew more. Batista got over when the industry was reeling as Austin was retired and The Rock went Hollywood. Save for Cena, the WWE Universe is more about trying to make sure no one can leave them. Cena gets a longer leash because he can't act. He can squint anyway you want to try to convey a random emotion, and that's it.

I won't have much to say about WWE now though.  I pretty much quit after the whole Chris Benoit fiasco, because I partly blame McMahon for what happened.  As much as WWE fans may be in denial about that, there's a reason that all occurred on the night Vince was going to mock the wrestling death 10 bell salute.  It was a big kick in the stomach too, because I had my favorite wrestler die twice in the WWE and get such a salute.  The whole thing left a really sour taste in my mouth.

I honestly don't know what to make of the situation. I think he handled Eddie's death with grace. I didn't like the PPV continued after what happened to Owen Hart, one of my favorite wrestlers, but the RAW dedicated to him the next night was great and paid total respect to him. And I think McMahon is trying to do his best to help wrestlers. He is paying for former wrestlers rehabs and on Scott Hall alone they have went six figures. I think he's kind of realized that he could have done much more to protect the wrestlers and is making effort now. I'll give him credit for that.

Now boycotting Benoit (since Shawn is now the ONLY wrestler to go number one and win the rumble)...I think that should go on another few years.

I think I may have watched Smackdown for a few months after that, but it was only because I liked seeing Fit Finley's matches pretty much.  After his push waned, I think I probably gave up or something.  Cena, Orton, and Botchista getting endless pushes made the decision really easy for me.

You'd be amazed at how much better Orton is. I used to not like him at all because of the Garvin Stomp and his endless restholds, but he has put on a string of four and five star matches this year. I'd vote him wrestler of the year.

I pretty much only follow TNA now, which I don't think was that bad of a decision.  WWE hasn't been as entertaining as TNA has been in all those years I felt the product had become stale but still watched anyways.  I think I'll take Bobby Roode, James Storm, and Sting in the commissioner type position over whatever the WWE is doing now.

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You lost me there. I think TNA is better now with Bobby Roode and James Storm...but they have ways to go after letting me down for years.

Only with SUPER, SUPER RICH backing. NWA/WCW has lost a TON of money over the years, and many times failed to turn any kind of a profit. They were axed because the corporate super-structure took one look at the money they were hemhorraging and was like "HOLY---!" and dropped them. Without Ted Turner to babysit the company, they had no chance to survive.

A lot of people consider 80's NWA to have been the best wrestling programming ever produced.  I don't think they needed a ton of money to operate properly, but obviously the people running WCW in the mid-90's were throwing their pocketbook around as a means to compete with the WWE.  I don't think it was absolutely neccessary though.  Either way, WWE has had plenty of terrible years that were even worse than WCW's poor ratings at the end there, but they didn't have the private ownership to fall back onto.  They were managed by someone else in a corporate food chain, which is why the plug was eventually pulled.

But I think it was a desperation act to help catch up to WCW after having the gimmicks rule the WWF. And I don't hate Nash or Hall...but they did a lot of harm. I mean, they were horrible backstage to the point that Goldberg was so angry one night he kicked Bret Hart into retirement. They vetoed ideas, never defended belts, showed up in no condition to compete, and were so lazy that in a powerbomb match...Nash won without powerbombing someone.

Blaming this on Hall and Nash is just ludicrous.  Golldberg botched the move.  It was his fault.  This is why I don't think green wrestlers like Godlberg, Botchtista, Lesnar, etc. should be employed by organizations like the WWE.

I'm not going to get into this weeds argument about the kliq.  Like them or hate them, they were good for business, good for storylines, good for matches, etc.  They shouldn't have been given the book in WCW, but I don't blame that on them.  A lot of people shouldn't be given the book.  There may have been a few memorable PPV bombs people recall, but the good they did far out weighs the bad.  Some people don't remember how lame WCW television programming was in 1994.

And the backstage BS is interesting, but this is the wrestling business.  If you think the kliq was that bad in comparison to what wrestling has been historically, I think you're mistaken.  I'm pretty sure Bruiser Brody would have preferred to have had to deal with the kliq at their worst than being murdered by the politickers he worked with.

Overall, some of the most creative people are jerks.  If I go to a 4 star restaurant, I'm going to be concerned about the plate of food I'm given to eat.  I'm not going to be concerned about how amicable that chef is to everyone in the back.

I guess the fact that people were plowed over by the kliq like Shane Douglas is unfortunate (although I'm sure is terrible gimmick approved by Vince McMahon played much more into his failure in the WWE than smarks will admit), but you're missing the big picture here.  Vince McMahon let them do whatever they wanted.  If you want to blame someone, blame him.  Similarly, I wouldn't blame the talent for steroids being out of control or whatever else.  It's management's job to handle that stuff.

My two favorite wrestlers are Bret Hart and Owen Hart, and I don't give a crap about any of this stuff.  I think most people that were in the 90's locker room that interacted with the kliq are over it, and the fans should do the same probably.  When I go back to 90's tapes, I'm going to be concerned with watching great matches, promos, vignettes, etc.  I'm not going to be thinking about how Shawn Michaels hit on Chris Candido's girlfriend.

I also think you're greatly over-exaggerating Nash's lack of in ring talent.  Obviously, he isn't the Undertaker, but he wasn't as inept as you describe.  I watched him since 1994.  If he was that bad, I would definitely be more negative towards him.  I'm not exactly an easy to please fan.  He is a limited wrestler, but he's not a green hack like most big men wrestlers tend to be.

I like TNA's wrestling better, but their booking annoys me so much. I have no idea what's going on in half of their shows, and they split up partnerships faster than even WWE does. And they still use the Dudleys, the stalest act in wrestling history. Though I've heard Devon is doing much better these days.

Bubba is actually one of the best solo heels right now in the industry as "Bully Ray."  You really need to watch this product again before you judge it.  They also had an excellent women's championship main-event the other week.  Something WWE would never book in a million years. 

TNA I think has evolved beyond being compared to WWE at this point imo.  I also find most of the big storylines to be pretty exciting or at least entertaining.  I have no idea how the WWE's TV writer produced storylines really compare that much.  At least TNA's feel like they were written by actual wrestling fans.  When I watch TNA, it feels more like a classic style wrestling program and less like the promoter trying desperately to be relevant or plan the next mega push of green talent two years in advance.

I honestly don't know what to make of the situation. I think he handled Eddie's death with grace. I didn't like the PPV continued after what happened to Owen Hart, one of my favorite wrestlers, but the RAW dedicated to him the next night was great and paid total respect to him. And I think McMahon is trying to do his best to help wrestlers. He is paying for former wrestlers rehabs and on Scott Hall alone they have went six figures. I think he's kind of realized that he could have done much more to protect the wrestlers and is making effort now. I'll give him credit for that.

Now boycotting Benoit (since Shawn is now the ONLY wrestler to go number one and win the rumble)...I think that should go on another few years.

Vince was going to do a ten bell salute for his own faked death the night Benoit lost it.  They're definitely not unconnected, especially since a lot of people say Eddie's death deeply disturbed him on top of the obvious bad mental condition he was in from performing his finisher for years.

I don't think McMahon handled Eddie's death well.  Trying to milk it with a Rey Mysterio storyline made me want to throw up.  I guess he gave his wife a job, but I'm not giving him any credit for anything else.  Vince is a guy with a lot of blood on his hands.  I suppose that may partly be the result of holding that kind of position in the wrestling business for so long.  Still, there are plenty of reasons why I feel justified to not respect him that much.

Okay, I have to go, but I want to say one thing: Dean Douglas was a great gimmick as an evil teacher. I loved all of his lessons with the chalk board and screeching it. What did him in was that the Kliq just buried him. Like they did others, but he's the stand out.

It was Vince McMahon that buried him.  Vince has had the control in WWE, always.  He knew what was going on.  He had the call on who won and lost, and who's contract was renewed.  I don't feel a lot of pity for Dean Douglas. There are plenty of great wrestlers that got treated like crap in the WWE.  I think at one point they had Ricky Steamboat dressing up in a dragon costume.  There was definiltey a point where Vince placed the importance of a gimmick well above the worker behind it.  So if the gimmick failed, you were booted out rather quickly.  WWE today works completley differently than it did in the 90's in this regard, although it's still there at some level.

And it's not like Vince would can someone for not just getting along with the Kliq.  The Rock doesn't like HHH, for one, and he seems pretty fine with pushing him.  I think some fans want to displace the blame onto the Kliq when the blame really belongs with Vince McMahon.  Similarly, I wouldn't blame Hulk Hogan for all the 80's talent that didn't get a world title run, because it was Vince's decision to run the company like that.

I thought his teacher gimmick was absolutely horrendous.  Maybe the vignettes were good in retrospect, but seriously I don't think anyone wants to see a teacher gimmick in a wrestling product that was aimed at kids.  It was just annoying.  And not in a cool annoying way like Doink or Golddust.  I guess some heel gimmicks are supposed to be annoying, but this one in particular was designed as midcard gimmick that was going to go nowhere.  Going to ECW is probably the best thing that happened to Shane Douglas.  I guarantee you if he didn't go to ECW, no one would know or care who he was

But again, it was Vince that decided to have him job the title like that and gave the OK to the booking.  How people perceive the 90's in wrestling is extremely strange.  It must be because kayfabe still existed back then when these things happened.  If someone jobbed the title like Douglas did today, people wouldn't be blaming the person he jobbed the title to at all.  They would be blaming the booker/McMahon/etc., which is what they should do since there the ones who booked the ending.

And WWE has treated plenty of workers like trash in every era.  I don't really find the WWE revolving door excuses the fact this has been the truth.  There's also that great interview with Vince McMahon from the 80's where he discusses the murder of Superfly's girlfriend and says he has no problem employing criminals pretty much.  Great window into how he views talent I think.  He may have changed since then, but he's still pretty much some prickish aloof guy that uses most of his talent like objects.

It was mentioned in interviews by Goldberg and Bret. I think Bret talked about it in the Hart and Soul DVD, I'd have to go back and look. I think it was more Nash at the time since Hall was...well, probably intoxicated. Sad too because Razor Ramon was my favorite wrestler when I was a kid. Well, him and Owen "The Rocket" Hart.

And it's hard for me to go, "McMahon should have done this" or "McMahon should have done that" because I'm not backstage. I mean, I was a big Matt Hardy fan and thought he should have been world champion--turns out he might even be worse than his brother is!! I don't know what goes on or went on backstage--and McMahon has crushed all those who have opposed him to the point he can now launch his own network!

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Please, DISH, have WWE Network in 2012.


Yeah, you were making way more than you deserved and everyone was an important buy...but the wrestling wasn't good in the late nineties from the wrestling standpoint.

Also, whether or not you agree that the "Dean Douglas" gimmick was stupid or not... everyone can admit that "The Dynamic Dudes" gimmick was WAY worse.

I mean, as bad as WWF got with gimmicks (and it could get STUPID), NOTHING beats WCW's worst stuff. Chucky the Doll arguing with Rick Steiner on TV, ROBOCOP coming out to help Sting, The Shockmaster, The Dynamic Dudes, Arachniman, etc... even the WWF's worst stuff wasn't that bad. And they made SABA SIMBA.