Topic: Things that Tick You Off (the Venting Thread)

[aamrun]

People that think if you aren't always smiling or acting bubbly there is something wrong with you.

I get this a lot at work. Yesterday, just because I wasn't smiling, a girl asked me, "Are you having a bad day?"

Then there's the hot dog girl, who likes to clap her hands, push her palms outward, and start dancing in front of me as a way of saying "Get excited."

Sometimes, she'll just come right up next to me while I'm on the register and stare at me, hoping to get me to laugh.

Or, if she knows I'm covering a particular department, she'll call it just to chat about stupid stuff, like how I should buy her chocolate or write her into one of my stories, because she's "the supporter".

Or she'll randomly be like "Hey, sexy, so when are we going out?"

A girl asks you out and that irks you ?

Wish some girl irked me like that ! 

Me too!!!

Me three!   

Did I mention I don't find her attractive, and she's a single mom?

I can understand the looks issue but I have no bones with her being a mom

[Biollante]

* Desperate fanboys who mewl over needing excessive Stripperific outfits, or ultra-violence in their comic books. I mean, I like skin too, but as an adult with a computer, I have access to WAY better material than what PG-rated comics can provide. And with REAL women. Just look at the garbage DC's printing nowadays, and how embarassing it feels to be an adult reading them. Girls wearing bikinis on a beach is fine, but having Starfire fly into combat with little cups covering her nether regions? And all the over-the-top Image-style violence? Jim Shooter said it best: "This is like porn for 13-year olds". No adult should be caught dead reading this sub-"Heavy Metal" nonsense, especially when you can read ACTUAL "Heavy Metal", y'know? It's just a cynical attempt to cater to the video game crowd that buys "God of War" and stuff like that, and I seriously doubt it's going to work.

Hasn't Starfire always been a sexpot that sort of flaunted it?  Just because she was de-aged and really toned down for a really watered down generic cartoon doesn't mean that's not what her character was about.  Of course, I've never really been big into Teen Titans anyways, but that seems to be what I gathered from it.

Personally, I find the the anti-sex in comics crusade to be much more annoying.  Personally, I sometimes find excessive trashy entertainment fun.  Certainly a lot more fun than having to talk to  fans that think comic books are some godly artform that should be approached like high class literature that should be debated in academic journals.  I'd also rather watch an Italian exploitation movie than some artsy fartsy French movie that is supposed to be profound, but that's just me I guess.

Obviously, I don't think every comic should be like that.  We are at the Archie forum after all.  And obviously not everyone is going to like it, and that's fine.  But if the readership wants it, I don't really criticize the publishers for giving the readers what they want to see in regards to sex or violence.

I also don't like this weird paranoia in comic fandom in regards to sexiness appearing in comics.  It's like they're afraid of being bullied by feminists or something.  Personally, for me, it's about the character's portrayal.  Is she a worthwhile character that is strong or interesting?  It's not only about the costumes or figures.  The women that are obsessed with criticizing sexy costumes or figures I think are honestly heteronormative sexists to some degree that need to find better things to do with their time than obsessing over fanservice in comic books.  You never, ever see male portrayals put under the same kind of scrutiny. 

I also personally know a whole lot of women that like fanservice and at least several that even draw it, so it's kind of ludicrous to me for someone to point at Power Girl or something as some kind or representation of every woman that ever lived and thus evil.  Has anyone ever done that with Superman, Fabio, yaoi manga, the hunky heroes from Twilight or anything male ever?  I don't think so.  The argument that there's nothing sexual about huge bulging ripped chests and that it's only about portraying "strength and power" is also akin to putting one's head in the sand to ignore the huge gaping holes in your argument.

The idea that if you like something that is sexy you must be a single loser is also a really big fallacy.  Maybe this was true in the 50's or something, but it seems to be a pretty big misunderstanding of what relationships and women are actually like in the 21st century.  Relationships are about trust and sharing.  If your girlfriend has an issue with you reading Powergirl, she has problems.  There's also plenty of couples that can enjoy this stuff together.  I mean, for Christ's sake, the last woman I was intimate with was actually the one that got me into Heavy Metal magazine.  LOL.

See, the problem was, ratings TANKED during the HHH & JBL years- which is why I felt they were bad. And obviously, I wasn't expecting HHH to lose to EACH guy- it was the fact that he BEAT each guy, often destroying their pushes in the process, which irked me- at least lose to ONE of them. Beating Booker T at WrestleMania was almost inexcusable, especially once they did the "HHH is racist" angle of "YOU PEOPLE don't deserve to be champions" and then beat him by hitting a Pedigree and then lying around for half a minute before going for the cover. HHH even squashed Bubba Ray Dudley on a RAW for no real reason, just as he was getting his midcard act over (I'm not even a Dudley fan, but I felt like that was a waste).

I watch wrestling for good matches and to be entertained though.  Personally, I found both heel runs to be great.  JBL's in particular was fantastic.  I'd personally rank him as the number one on the mic heel in the WWE's history.  I also really didn't find Booker T's character to be main event caliber at that point.  Booker T kind of proved to me that he had to be a heel to wear the strap, but that's just my opinion.

The problem is when you start caring about ratings and PPV buy-rates more than the actual product.  That's like only liking or praising movies that had good box-office numbers.

[Jabroniville]

Oh yeah, Starfire was always hot, and always dressed to show off some skin (however, the Titans were always very all-encompassing with Fanservice- they didn't just parade the WOMEN around), but she was at least wearing SOMETHING. Her character nowadays is more of a bored, nude woman who casually sleeps around- back in the day, she was more of a "Passion-driven" character- she was a sexual being, but sane and non-skanky about it- her passions ran with rage, fear, love and the more "adult" things. They've basically turned the character into a 13-year old's idealized woman in some weird way. Even worse is the bizarre soft-porn scene in the recent "Catwoman" issue. I almost felt like taking a shower after seeing an image of it. It's not just Fanservice (which I don't have as big a problem with)- it's immature, childish Fanservice.

And yes, I agree that the whole feminist "Wimmin R Objectified in Comix!" argument is annoying as well. Some of them practically freak out over any woman who's shown to be attractive and/or busty, completely ignoring that every man's body is idealized as well, and that BOTH genders wear the tights (unlike stripperific outfits- most male heroes never wear them)- and tights are actually what you should ACTUALLY wear in athletic situations as well. Don't even get me started on the "Women in Refridgerators" crowd...

If comics decide they want to be more lurid, and be more "adult" in theme (though like a lot of people, I wish comics writers would realize that "Adult" doesn't always mean "R-Rated"- the guy who commented about the "Life With Archie" series being the most adult book around was VERY true- it can mean MATURITY as well), that's fine. But it's done in such a childish, obvious way that I can't imagine an adult getting into it- it's all "hey, look! BEWBS!" And like I said, if you're into fanservice, there's other, more scandalous things out there to read- unless comics decides to be all like Vertigo or Marvel MAX, there's not much point in pushing an envelope so far.

And they do this while also trying to court the fans who either dislike it or flat-out aren't interested in it-- I mean, I don't care about yaoi or romance novels objectifying men, because obviously I'd never BUY either of them. But if Marvel decided it was "All yaoi, all the time", I'd be REALLY annoyed, and that's the issue with a lot of comics- the characters should be attractive, but turning it into borderline porn (and WEAK porn, at that- I've noted that it's not even close to what video games or movies can show these days) is silly when they're also trying to appeal to other groups.

Now if Marvel & DC decided tomorrow that they're super-fanservicey and showed nudie stuff... then I'd be fine with it. Probably wouldn't hang around the weirder forums, or the kids who get WAY too excited over that kind of thing, or read the stuff in public like I do now, but whatever, I care more about the stories than the skin, and I'd still read. But doing things like "Women in Marvel" to actively gather female fans, while putting out issues where every woman dresses in V-neck-to-the-belly-button tops? That's just silly. I mean, yaoi doesn't try to cater to straight male fans, nor SHOULD it, ya know?

I mean, I don't complain about "Chaos Comics" and it's depictions of women at all (and I know others that do), because they're CLEARLY all about that, and don't even bother to hide it. I personally don't read it, but it doesn't interfere with books I DO read, so I don't care. Similarly, I don't get offended or bothered by "Heavy Metal", or the Adult industry as a whole. It's just that Marvel & DC have this weird semi-guilty "yay- we're all inclusive!" thing about them (DC has released tons of women-focused books, and seem to actively cater to Gail Simone and her fans), and that's why they look so weird.

When It's Done Right:
It's like... Archie always had a nice medium. Sure, the women were attractive. Bikinis were shown a LOT, especially on Dan DeCarlo issues. But... the women wore bikinis on a beach, where it is NORMAL to dress a bit skimpy, whereas most super-hero books would have us believe people fly into combat like that. The skin made SENSE. And the men were usually in swim trunks as well- not as comparatively-scandalous, but whatever. And Archie appealed to boys AND girls on an equal level, and very rarely was there something objectionable to even children.

Similarly, Gail Simone is/was great for being all-encompassing. She LOVES to have fanservice in her books, yet she's actively a feminist and caters to both genders, because the men are ALSO shown in scandalous-nature at times. And her characters also tend to be in skimpy outfits when the situation would call for it- in bed, etc. She actively caters to both groups of fans, and gives 'em what they want, without anyone feeling dirty. So much the better. For non-Feminist types (because Simone tend to be a hot-button issue with some people with issues, for some reason- the easiest way to spot a misogynist is to open up a discussion on Simone), there's Fred Perry's "Gold Diggers" and Adam Warren's "Empowered", both of which allow any type of fanservice.

Similarly, most recent Marvel comic book movies show the men shirtless a TON of the time. But I don't notice or care, because it's just some dude with his shirt off... but women sure appreciate it (most of the one's I've known who've seen them rave about it), and thus you're more likely to be able to take dates to super-hero movies . I mean, that's a definite plus. And there's ALSO tons of sexy ladies in those movies to enjoy. It's like having what's best for everybody. And yet it never comes across as silly or puerile. It's actually ingenious, because while the movies are advertised towards males, they actively give women rewards for watching... in effect, a reverse of how Archie did it, when they catered to girls more than boys for much of their existence, while also giving boys a "reward" for reading.

And re: Heavy Metal- never read much of the magazine, but the movie was AWESOME. It was hilariously whacky, stupid, goofy '70s awesomeness. "South Park" did a hilarious parody of it .

[Tuxedo Mark]

If your girlfriend has an issue with you reading Powergirl, she has problems.

QFT. However, in my case, it was Betty.

And re: Heavy Metal- never read much of the magazine, but the movie was AWESOME. It was hilariously whacky, stupid, goofy '70s awesomeness.

'80s, and, yes, it's awesome.

[Biollante]

I care more about the stories than the skin, and I'd still read. But doing things like "Women in Marvel" to actively gather female fans, while putting out issues where every woman dresses in V-neck-to-the-belly-button tops? That's just silly. I mean, yaoi doesn't try to cater to straight male fans, nor SHOULD it, ya know?

Well, imo, V-neck to the belly tops aren't always bad.  My favorite characters from anything are the Dirty Pair, both the anime and comic book versions.  Their outfits are very skimpy, but they're also very strong, tough, and empowered female characters.  Their outfits are kind of their statement on their sexual liberation.  They're the ones that chase guys, and they certainly don't let anyone treat them like an object if they want to live to see the next day.

So over all, it depends on the context imo.  Does it work for the character?  Is the character portrayed as being strong?  Certainly not every female character should dress provocatively, but the people who want a character like the White Queen to cover up really need to get a life.

I mean there's been some cases when I've been ticked off by certain fanservice things, but it was due to the context it was in, like the female characters being worthless slaves to a male counterpart or something, not the fact it was fanservice.

If comics decide they want to be more lurid, and be more "adult" in theme (though like a lot of people, I wish comics writers would realize that "Adult" doesn't always mean "R-Rated"- the guy who commented about the "Life With Archie" series being the most adult book around was VERY true- it can mean MATURITY as well), that's fine. But it's done in such a childish, obvious way that I can't imagine an adult getting into it- it's all "hey, look! BEWBS!" And like I said, if you're into fanservice, there's other, more scandalous things out there to read- unless comics decides to be all like Vertigo or Marvel MAX, there's not much point in pushing an envelope so far.

Well, the lurid aspect of comics has always been part of it imo.  This goes back to crime and horror comics that were definitely the engine that drove the industry until that huge conservative backlash against it.  So from that aspect, it's kind of strange to suggest luridness doesn't belong in comics, like the same it would be to make that argument with horror films or something.  I realize comics changed post-the comics code, but a lot of that was literally forced on publishers.

I just sometimes find that element entertaining and like to see the boundaries pushed a little bit when it works.  I also never found anything wrong with it.  It's make-believe after all.  But of course the United States has historically had a huge sex-phobia.

It's like... Archie always had a nice medium. Sure, the women were attractive. Bikinis were shown a LOT, especially on Dan DeCarlo issues. But... the women wore bikinis on a beach, where it is NORMAL to dress a bit skimpy, whereas most super-hero books would have us believe people fly into combat like that. The skin made SENSE. And the men were usually in swim trunks as well- not as comparatively-scandalous, but whatever. And Archie appealed to boys AND girls on an equal level, and very rarely was there something objectionable to even children.

I love Dan DeCarlo's fan service, but I don't know if Archie is the best comparison to make.  Obviously, Archie has a large younger demographic that sucks up a lot of the sales pie so they can't push the boundaries too far (although I wish it would at least go back to the DeCarlo level of eye candy). 

Archie is also a whole let less fantastic in setting than other comics.  So obviously Veronica probably can't really wear something she wouldn't get away with in school or living under her parents, regardless of whether or not she would want to.

I think that points out an important distinction.  Super hero comics are total fantasy.  No one can "fly" into combat like a super heroine does, so using the real world as your barometer doesn't really work all that well.  It's fine when certain writers or artists try to infuse supposed "reality" into their books, but if anyone pretends they are actually realistic, they're really deluding themselves.

And they do this while also trying to court the fans who either dislike it or flat-out aren't interested in it-- I mean, I don't care about yaoi or romance novels objectifying men, because obviously I'd never BUY either of them. But if Marvel decided it was "All yaoi, all the time", I'd be REALLY annoyed, and that's the issue with a lot of comics- the characters should be attractive, but turning it into borderline porn (and WEAK porn, at that- I've noted that it's not even close to what video games or movies can show these days) is silly when they're also trying to appeal to other groups.

Trying to appeal to all groups without ever being contradictory is also a problem though.  When you do that, it results in something that is overly watered down.  Then you begin to approach something that is politically correct but also extremely tame and boring.

Second point, I think contrasting eye candy in comics against pornography is a false dichotomy honestly.  That's like asking why are you drinking socially for fun when you could get totally hammered to point you black out and lose your lunch for a good portion of the next day. 

Some people also like their sexy stuff with other stuff in it, like romance, action, adventure, story, characters, etc.  That makes it more enjoyable.  This is why a lot of people, including a lot of women, don't like porn, there's nothing else to it.

Now if Marvel & DC decided tomorrow that they're super-fanservicey and showed nudie stuff... then I'd be fine with it. Probably wouldn't hang around the weirder forums, or the kids who get WAY too excited over that kind of thing, or read the stuff in public like I do now, but whatever, I care more about the stories than the skin, and I'd still read. But doing things like "Women in Marvel" to actively gather female fans, while putting out issues where every woman dresses in V-neck-to-the-belly-button tops? That's just silly. I mean, yaoi doesn't try to cater to straight male fans, nor SHOULD it, ya know?

Hilariously, there is yaoi content now that does cater to straight male fans and is drawn by them.  I think that's part of the problem when you get into classifying things like this.  Yeah, it may be aimed at a certain segment for business purposes, but some things can be enjoyed by other groups.  There will always be crossover appeal.  According to Michael Silberkleit (RIP) Archie is for "11 year old girls."  Looking at this forum, I don't think everyone here is an 11 year old girl.

For me personally, I prefer the female form.  I've been sexually attracted to real guys before but I think personality was the biggest part of that.  I don't mind seeing male based fanservice, but often it's not drawn in a way that pleases me specifically.  Similarly, I'm sure there are straight girls that would view it the same way in regards to liking seeing their hunky guys but not minding seeing the sexy women as well.  Then you have girls that may like seeing the sexy women or both the sexy guys and girls, and vice versa for male readers.  One of the thing that annoys me is when women (or men for that matter) are lumped into one big static category that is supposed to think and act a certain way and like certain things.  I kind of thought that was one of the things feminism isn't supposed to do.

And don't even know if I like the term feminist anymore.  I mean up to several months ago I would call myself that, but now I feel kind of weird about it.  I mean if the goal of feminism is supposed to be equality, as a lot of people now purport it to be, then why are terms like feminist, patriarchy, etc. very gender based terms?  Seems slightly weird to try to reposition yourself as not only being pro-female, anti-male while still using the same gender based terminology.

Similarly, most recent Marvel comic book movies show the men shirtless a TON of the time. But I don't notice or care, because it's just some dude with his shirt off... but women sure appreciate it (most of the one's I've known who've seen them rave about it), and thus you're more likely to be able to take dates to super-hero movies . I mean, that's a definite plus. And there's ALSO tons of sexy ladies in those movies to enjoy. It's like having what's best for everybody. And yet it never comes across as silly or puerile. It's actually ingenious, because while the movies are advertised towards males, they actively give women rewards for watching... in effect, a reverse of how Archie did it, when they catered to girls more than boys for much of their existence, while also giving boys a "reward" for reading.

For some reason, I've been sort of growing tired of recent Marvel movies.  I mean they're still ok, but they're sort of beginning to feel blah.  Like they all feel the same some how?  Maybe it's due to how Marvel is managing them.  I think I may have liked X-Men First Class (the Fox movie) more than Thor, Iron Man 2, and Captain America, just because it felt different.

Although, you're certainly right about Thor bringing the male fanservice, and it being popular for that reason.  Thor is himself pretty much the "Fabio" type idealized male.

[Jabroniville]

QFT. However, in my case, it was Betty.

Was it because of the fanservice, or just because it was "kiddie"?

[Biollante]

QFT. However, in my case, it was Betty.

Was it because of the fanservice, or just because it was "kiddie"?

Seems strange since a lot of girls read Archie Comics at some point.  If not, they're usually some what neutral on it.

[Tuxedo Mark]

QFT. However, in my case, it was Betty.

Was it because of the fanservice, or just because it was "kiddie"?

It's because she was jealous of Betty. She was convinced that I was in love with Betty.

[Biollante]

QFT. However, in my case, it was Betty.

Was it because of the fanservice, or just because it was "kiddie"?

It's because she was jealous of Betty. She was convinced that I was in love with Betty.

Someone should tell her comic books aren't real.  Good grief.

[Jabroniville]

To be fair, reading some of Mark's comments on this site, I can get the impression that a girlfriend of his could be jealous of Betty . But in all seriousness, she was crazy.

---
Regarding Power Girl, I actually have a pair of funny stories involving her Fanserviceyness:

First story- My best friend and his girlfriend were hanging out, and she picked up one of the Trades of mine that he'd borrowed and flipped through it. It was the "JSA" trade where PG fought "Da Bomb". She actually was reading it for real for four or five pages, then saw a HUGE Splash Page of PG's giant boob-window as she flew towards the camera. She laughed, shouted "Oh my god!" and stopped reading the book. She wasn't offended or mortified, or even thought he was reading nudie books, but she did find it funny.

Second story- Same guy, different girl. He'd borrowed a PG trade, she saw it sitting on a table, and then just laughed at him- "REALLY?"

Said girls were perfectly reasonable people, who even understood our enjoyment of comics. Hell, the latter even plays "Mortal Kombat" and finds it's over-the-topness amusing. Neither girl really MINDS comics as a whole, but both found it to be an easy thing to ridicule. And personally, while I think PG is a good character, her boob-window is so overwhelmingly the most-recognizable thing about her that it detracts from the seriousness of any stories (her recent series was actually pretty good because it was just all-out Fun & Fanservice, with no pretense). Most girls don't even have a problem with her figure, however- most actually seem to LIKE IT, since she's actually built the way someone like that should be. The Rob Liefeldian era (remember when comics were THAT bad regarding showing the opposite sex? The Image Era nearly killed comics for a very good reason) is a good example of how to do that WRONG- giant sphere-boobs on skinny bodies was ridiculous.

Regarding Popular things:
Personally, I'd like comics to do and sell better. Whether or not something is popular has NO effect on how much I enjoy it (I like some OBSCURE stuff sometimes), but I'd like things I enjoy to be more popular, as well as successful- if something doesn't make a lot of money, it'll get cancelled- I've seen a LOT of comics I liked get cancelled due to lack of interest (the current "Alpha Flight" run recently get re-demoted back to a Mini-Series), so if they can gather as many fans as they can, and appeal to as many groups as possible, that's a GOOD thing in my book. I mean, if "Betty" and "Veronica" had appealed to more people, maybe those books wouldn't have been cancelled.

Sex = Evil in America:
I've heard that alot about American society, and while it's been true at times (America has some REALLY puritan times), I think they're not too resistant to sexual imagery- look at America's "Adult Industry", by far the biggest in the world. I mean, you can show WAY more suggestive stuff on TV and in movies than you ever could before (and not just on Cable), and the media as a whole has gotten way more suggestive too. America isn't quite at JAPAN's level of perversion, but it's a close one .

And re: Heavy Metal- never read much of the magazine, but the movie was AWESOME. It was hilariously whacky, stupid, goofy '70s awesomeness.

'80s, and, yes, it's awesome.

*tsk* Corrective Courtney! 
I was off by two years, and anyways, the early couple years of a decade are indistinguishable from the latter half of the preceding one (Disco was way popular into the '80s, '80s music still held up into the early '90s, etc.), so in my head, I'm still partially right . That movie seemed VERY '70s to me.

[Biollante]

To be fair, reading some of Mark's comments on this site, I can get the impression that a girlfriend of his could be jealous of Betty . But in all seriousness, she was crazy.

And there's nothing really wrong with crushing on a character.  God knows every girl does this, although unless she's into nerdy stuff, it's probably Johnny Depp or some other celebrity.  The other person in the relationship should be accommodating to that, because it's just make believe fun.  If not, they have extreme insecurity issues and may not be mature enough for a relationship.

Sex = Evil in America:
I've heard that alot about American society, and while it's been true at times (America has some REALLY puritan times), I think they're not too resistant to sexual imagery- look at America's "Adult Industry", by far the biggest in the world. I mean, you can show WAY more suggestive stuff on TV and in movies than you ever could before (and not just on Cable), and the media as a whole has gotten way more suggestive too. America isn't quite at JAPAN's level of perversion, but it's a close one .

I don't know about that.  This goes for violence too.  The movies of the 70's and the early 80's really blows stuff out now away.  There are plenty of movies that came out then that were successful that would never get a half decent release now because the corporate theater chains will not carry NC-17 level content. 

There's many reasons for that, corporatization I think key among them, but it was also a big conservative backlash against anything involving sex that started in the Reagan years and went on through George W. Bush.  People forget that Bush actually tried to illegalize the "adult industry."  If he was successful, it wouldn't exist anymore. 

Thankfully, newer interpretations of the freedom speech by the Supreme Court prevented that.  I honestly don't think the government has any place in dictating what art can exist, no matter how much you may not like it.

Things are probably better now, due to some of the stupid people losing relevance in society, but there was a definitely a recent era where the prudes were highly influential.

*tsk* Corrective Courtney! 
I was off by two years, and anyways, the early couple years of a decade are indistinguishable from the latter half of the preceding one (Disco was way popular into the '80s, '80s music still held up into the early '90s, etc.), so in my head, I'm still partially right . That movie seemed VERY '70s to me.

To be honest, it probably started production in the late 70's.  All the stories in the movie are probably taken from 70's issues of Heavy Metal Magazine.  Fun fact, Dan O'Banon who wrote Alien, worked on this film.  Alien and Blade Runner were also worked on or highly influenced by artists who have worked on Heavy Metal Magazine.

[NineZero09]

Ghidra, I'm all for free speech and no limits on the internet, as long it's legal and doesn't promote harm to people. Most adult-themed web sites appear to be legit and many of the sites are owned by couples, a husband-and-wife business reminds us this isn't forced against her will. What gets me is so-called "feminists" against sexism or maltreatment of women in the adult indistry and the religious right claim to be for the constitution are an odd couple to have something to agree on. I call myself a liberal, but in this case I could represent myself a Libertarian when I oppose government regulation of adult-themed art and sexual expression, as long it's not targeting minors or isn't already against the law. The last time I checked, homosexuality is legal in the US and the free world.

Same goes to Fan fic aimed at an adult audience. I'm not for shocking nor extreme fetish sketches or artwork, I like to see just romantic material and shows a positive portrayal of the characters presented. I wouldn't want to look at fan fic misrepresenting women and homosexuals in a negative light, nor men and straights for that matter, and I don't mind what kind of genre or niche the theme is about: A female character can have a girlfriend (don't bother me) or has two male lovers (not that either) or she's drawn to be fat or pregnant (again, I have nothing against it, but won't be looking at it either). I don't want to see little girls or boys, with animals or already dead, as this is less or completely unacceptable. I don't see a romantic connection, compared to tasteful stories and yuri/yaoi of actual romance.