Quote from: Archiver123 on April 07, 2016, 12:25:41 AM

Quote from: BlueBomber2015 on April 07, 2016, 12:22:31 AM
I wonder why they made the show "edgy"?

Becathey want to tarnish the company as a whole.  I hope ACP "dies" as an independent, and is bought out by Disney.

Whatever else, not Disney — though the style/values might be a good match — Disney already owns Marvel, so they'd be merged (they wouldn't have two separate comics publishing wings) and Marvel would obviously dominate — it would likely be great for the Dark Circle imprint, but not classic Archie. IDW or Dark Horse already have contacts and sensitivities to the classic material and would be a better fit (if they could afford it) ...

Quote
"current times." I asked you specifically to put out an argument that doesn't use those kind of meaningless rhetorical terms.  Can you not do it?

Also, that's not what diversity even means.  Diversity is the opposite of homogeneity.  It has no inherent positive or negative qualities. 

Well, I consider diversity a positive quality and so does many people. The only argument that you seem to have and repeat is that the characters were white so they should always be white and you have white guilt if you don't agree, regardless of how unnecessary their skin colour is to who the characters are. The colorists/creators chose to ink those characters in that colour because that was the norm at the time. It would definitely be different nowaways as is reflected by most comics and Archie comics and soon the TV show.

QuoteAnd how is having 5 white characters in a made up story inaccurate in regards to anything current?  Do 5 white people no longer congregate with each other anymore in our current times?  Did racial minorities not exist in the past as you previously suggested?  You have no argument so far other than repeating that it's the currently the present.

I never argued that having 5 white characters were inaccurate to current real life. I have made my argument and if you refuse to listen, that's your choice.

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Again "things are different now" and "reflective of our times."  You just can't stop doing this.  Do you have anything else?

I've argued my case and you keep on wanting me to change my stance because you can't accept that times have changed and fictional media is trying to represent that. I'm not going to tell you what you want to hear.

Quote Regardless, with your stand point, does that mean stuff that is made in the US and is only about minorities is incorrect?  Logically, that would be your stand point.  Like if a movie is made with a black cast, are they being incorrect for not including white people, Asians, Hispanics, etc.?

I'm not going to keep arguing about properties other than the show Riverdale, if you want to keep doing that then go ahead, but I'm not going to respond to it. Like you said, this is a comic book forum. This forum is not for discussion of non-Archie related properties and I think you are going off-topic.

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I don't think you're an Archie fan if you don't think Josie and the Pussycats is an important stand alone property.  Hell yeah, the diversity was removed from Josie and the Pussycats in this example.  And yeah, Josie and Melody being white was part of their characters, and they should have stayed how they were intended.  This damages their intellectual property for sure.

Josie and the Pussycats are not a standalone property in the Tv show that we are getting. They are a part of the Riverdale TV universe whether you like it or not, so white characters still represent the majority in this universe.

QuoteAlso there are plenty of minority fans that don't want this, yet you don't care what they think, because your white guilt "progressive" ideological political nonsense is more important to you.

Well I'm a minority fan so your assumptions don't apply to me.

Quote
Slavery ended in 1865.  The 15th amendment was passed in 1870.  Brown vs. the Board of Education happened in 1954.  The Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964.  The Voting Rights Act was passed in 1965.  None of this happened in 2016.  If the comics were okay having 5 white people from 1940's through 2016, it's okay now, and you are being ludicrous suggesting other wise.

Chuck Clayton was created in 1971 which was shortly after the Civil rights movement so he is reflective of the times.

QuoteKevin Keller is not mainstream.  His comic got canceled for bad sales.  He doesn't have wide recognition among the general populace.  People on this forum know about the other minority characters, because they read the comics, unlike you have I guess. 

It doesn't matter that his comic got cancelled. I was not referring to the comic sales, I was talking about the character. Kevin Keller made big news headlines when they announced his character. Lots of people who doesn't read Archie knows him. He is definitely mainstream and really popular. Yes I am aware of the new minority characters but I'm not familiar with them as I haven't read much of the recent issues.

QuoteSo what's wrong with developing the existing minority characters instead of treating them like disposable garbage?

They just aren't as marketable because of the lack of recognition to the public. They may still appear later on as cameos or if they become popular.

Lastly, I don't think being condescending to your opponent by repeatedly asking if they've read what they wrote is constructive or good argument skills. Neither is belittling people and calling them "childish."  I think we can just agree to disagree because we will just keep going around and around in circles.

Quote from: invisifan on April 07, 2016, 03:06:13 AM

Quote from: Archiver123 on April 07, 2016, 12:25:41 AM

Quote from: BlueBomber2015 on April 07, 2016, 12:22:31 AM
I wonder why they made the show "edgy"?

Becathey want to tarnish the company as a whole.  I hope ACP "dies" as an independent, and is bought out by Disney.

Whatever else, not Disney — though the style/values might be a good match — Disney already owns Marvel, so they'd be merged (they wouldn't have two separate comics publishing wings) and Marvel would obviously dominate — it would likely be great for the Dark Circle imprint, but not classic Archie. IDW or Dark Horse already have contacts and sensitivities to the classic material and would be a better fit (if they could afford it) ...

I agree. We don't want Disney to monopolise everything. They've already gotten Marvel, Star Wars, their inhouse Disney animation and Pixar. You will probably have even less of a chance at live action Archie with Disney's full slate.


Also, if they made a live action series it would probably go to Freeform and you can look at Pretty Little Liars and Shadowhunters for the quality of their writing.   

Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on April 06, 2016, 01:43:59 PM
Found the link! http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/02/29/ive-read-the-script-for-the-tv-pilot-for-archie-comics-riverdale-f-bombs-murder-noir-rainbow-parties-and-cougars/

QuoteThe script begins with a narrator talking about the town of Riverdale, and how it isn't what people think. We are shown what may be familiar locations, the city hall, the cinema, Pop's Chok'lit Shoppe Diner, but also derelict buildings with boarded up walls, graffiti and meth addicts. Because this is the real Riverdale, all of it, folks. This isn't just Archie the TV series. It's Betty & Veronica Mars.

It starts with the death of Jason Blossom, Cheryl Blossom's twin brother and doesn't stop. This is a Riverdale with kids who talk about Rainbow parties, a Reggie who gets badly drunk, a Riverdale of strip joints, and, yes, a just-16 year old Archie sleeping with his music teacher and then using it to blackmail her. And suggestions of twincest too.

So who do we have, and how does the script describe them? Jughead is an "emo-heartthrob". Jason and Cheryl Blossom could have stepped from an Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue. Pop Tate is Greek. Veronica and her divorced mother are "two dark haired beauties", Betty is "Blonde, pretty, 16″, Kevin Keller, her gay confident is "16 cute", sexually active on Grindr and dealing with a homophobic military dad. Keller is the Archie Comics main gay character, but rather the passive character of the comics, here he is a little more in your face- though slightly reserved when he gets down to it . And Archie Andrews is 16, red haired – indeed his hair colour is constantly mentioned, Josie refers to him as "Justin Gingerlake" – recently buffed up after working for his dad's construction company over the summer and lives next door to Betty, who is madly in love with him. And Veronica? She just wants a boy toy to pass the summer and she's never gone ginge before.

Oh and there's the language. I mean it's relatively tame compared to what, you know, most actual teenagers say, but then so is The Wire. But we get a number of S-bombs, mentions of spank-banks, Archie is asked by Reggie Mantle if he "tapped any MILF ass this summer?" I know some of you reading this will think I've made this up. I have not.

But for all the shock value, and there is plenty of that, this is a clever, well balanced, teen thriller of a TV show. Funny, dark, expressing the confusion of characters who, rather than the sure stereotypes of the classic Archie comics, are teenagers who frankly don't yet know who they are, so why the hell should we? It's the beginning of a journey, as people, circumstances, bodies, lives begin to change. It's not just a coming of age story but a coming of the ages.

The dialogue is the kind of stylised reality we know from the likes of Buffy and Veronica Mars, but errs towards the latter in its darkness. So it's all clearly fake, as if teenagers had writers rooms helping them with their every line, but it is consistent, engaging, rewarding and creating its own reality that just sucks you in.

And yet many of the plotlines seem utterly familiar. The competition for Archie's favour. Trying out for the cheerleading squad. Making the sports team. Who takes who to the school dance, and who gets set up with whom against their will. Playing spin the bottle. And going to the diner for strawberry milkshakes. And jughead still has that stupid at – though he is no friend of Archie. Not anymore. He's also a caffeine addict rather than a hamburglar – and he wears a hearing aid because he's deaf.

An intentional irony as this Archie has become a songwriter – so not only can we see his angst, we get to hear it too. This is Aguirre-Sacasa's tale of an outing just like in his banned play all those years ago, rather than just of sexuality, it's of ambition, of talent, of expression. Though of a fashion rather different to that of Josie and the  Pussycats – yes, who are all there sporting their cat ears, and rather dismissive of Archie and his ambitions. His mission is to escape the rather literal destiny of his father's concrete company, expected to one day take it over. The last thing he wants... is to be set in the same ways as his father. Yes, the allegory is rather sledgehammered home.

Oh and then there's *that* kiss...
Riverdale is going to be massive. One Million Moms will hate it even more than Lucifer. But the last time I read a script that so convinced me, it was for Preacher. And I'm putting that "Betty & Veronica Mars" line on a T-shirt.

After re-reading this, I have got to think this is a joke, right? It really can't be true. The person who wrote the article is messing around with our minds, right? .....

Sounds good to me! I don't like the idea of my favourite squeaky clean teenagers having sex but if they choose to do it, don't make it a cliched coming of age story with "special first time" stories, just go all out on the fun side of it!


The only issue I have is the rumour that Archie is sleeping with Miss Grundy. That's just disturbing and wrong on so many levels. It's like having a best friend who slept with your mother. Anyone but Miss Grundy!    Maybe it won't be her because isn't Miss Grundy an English teacher and not a music teacher?

QuoteAnd Jughead still has that stupid at

If the author misspelt "hat" as "at", maybe this means Jughead is wearing his trademark hat afterall. I like that Jughead wears a hearing aid, it makes him unique.

QuoteOh and then there's *that* kiss...

I wonder who they are referring to? A lesbian kiss between Betty and Veronica?

Quote from: old_jughead on April 07, 2016, 03:39:17 AM

QuoteOh and then there's *that* kiss...

I wonder who they are referring to? A lesbian kiss between Betty and Veronica?

That would be Archie & Jughead ...

Quote from: invisifan on April 07, 2016, 04:08:27 AM

Quote from: old_jughead on April 07, 2016, 03:39:17 AM

QuoteOh and then there's *that* kiss...

I wonder who they are referring to? A lesbian kiss between Betty and Veronica?

That would be Archie & Jughead ...

Wow, they literally kiss and make up in one episode! 

Quote from: BlueBomber2015 on April 07, 2016, 12:22:31 AM
I wonder why they made the show "edgy"?

They made the show edgy b/c Fox said we don't want this to be another Glee, and so the writers turned it into a dark, mystery drama.


When the CW picked it up, they kept it the way it was newly written.

Quote from: invisifan on April 07, 2016, 03:06:13 AM

Quote from: Archiver123 on April 07, 2016, 12:25:41 AM

Quote from: BlueBomber2015 on April 07, 2016, 12:22:31 AM
I wonder why they made the show "edgy"?

Becathey want to tarnish the company as a whole.  I hope ACP "dies" as an independent, and is bought out by Disney.

Whatever else, not Disney — though the style/values might be a good match — Disney already owns Marvel, so they'd be merged (they wouldn't have two separate comics publishing wings) and Marvel would obviously dominate — it would likely be great for the Dark Circle imprint, but not classic Archie. IDW or Dark Horse already have contacts and sensitivities to the classic material and would be a better fit (if they could afford it) ...

Well, with the way ACP is trashing the brand, a hobo could probably buy the company!

Ms. Grundy? Oh I hope Archie is having an affair with Mr. Weatherbee 

Quote from: old_jughead on April 05, 2016, 09:43:46 PM


The point is Archie Comics has always been diverse right from the get-go and everyone was accepted for who they are. There were old people, young people, fat people, skinny people, ugly people, beautiful people, nerds, jocks, freckled people etc. Then over the years they added more diversity like having black characters such as Chuck as the look of America started to change and now we have a gay person with Kevin Kellar. Diversity isn't new with Archie, it's just been updated to include more diversity in races to represent today. If the show was set in the 50s, that would be a different story, but it isn't.

A couple of years ago, Archie made the internal declaration that "little kids don't find old people funny." This was almost a direct quote from one of Archie's key higher-ups. The "old people" label covered adults, fat people, nerds and anyone other than young hot model types. We were told that "kids want to read about attractive people." I don't know what sort of scientific survey Archie conducted to arrive at these conclusions but this is what we were told.


As a consequence of this decree, anytime we had any sort of background person in a story... like a shop owner, passer-by, etc... they all had to be young hot people. Sometimes I'd be drawing pages in the office and this certain higher-up would look over my shoulder. If I'd drawn a fat old guy in the background of the streets of Riverdale, this person would say, "Can't you make that a cute girl instead?" Ultimately this started to undermine the little Samm Schwartz style background gags I liked to include in my stories. Let's face it a young girl slipping on a banana peel just isn't going to be as funny as a fat guy slipping on a banana peel. Eventually, unless directly ordered to make a change or a specific inclusion, I just ignored this mandate and just drew whatever I wanted.


The same higher-up also had a similar obsession with race and diversity. Riverdale, we were told, was too "lily white." (That's the actual term used.) Thus we were encouraged to use Chuck as much as possible. This isn't really a problem and usually an easy enough request to accommodate but eventually, this grew into shoe-horning Chuck into every possible situation... especially on covers. This is where this became a pain. You just don't have a whole lot of room on covers (especially those digests covers!) Often I'd submit cover ideas and the feedback I'd receive would be "Could you add Chuck?" Or Nancy. If I included both, I knew I'd hit a home run. There were more than a few covers I did where Chuck has nothing to do with the gag and he's just there smiling (Another Archie mandate: "Everyone HAS to smile on covers ALL THE TIME!")


At some point, we were suddenly told to ease off on Chuck. I guess Chuck didn't prove to be Archie's "Wolverine" or "Punisher" after all. The word came down all of a sudden that "Chuck was boring." This led directly to the creation of Trey and one of our favorite recurring gags among us artists on the inside, Toni Topaz. I don't know much about Trey, but I was in the Archie offices when Toni Topaz was created literally by the entire office staff! They wanted a hip black chick and that sat around throwing out ideas and off-beat name ideas. I don't remember the rejected names, but I remember Toni Topaz was really the best of the bunch. They wanted a colorful catchy name, but everything made her sound like a stripper. Since I was there, I was asked to make some initial Toni Topaz sketches. I had a magazine with me that had a picture of Rhiannon in a pink hat so that's what I drew and that's what became Toni Topaz.


Toni appeared in about two stories before one of the massive cutbacks in the new material came down. Archie Comics still, however, insisted that she appear on as many covers as possible. I have no idea if they're still demanding this.

If I decide to choose to watch this show and I have made my mind up totally yet I am not even going to go into it as it is an Archie Comics T.V. Show. It seems so far from that right now with the exceptions that the characters have the same names as the comic characters. So if I do watch it I will look at it as another Teen Drama type show that seems to have flooded the market in the past 10 years or so. Just my personal opinion I don't think it is going to make it.

If I EVER decide to watch the show, it will strictly be because I like to archive stuff.

I thought of a great person to play Ethel, the girl from The Middle. On The Middle Sue is odd just like Ethel.

Most likely the show wont last a season (if they're going in the Archie x Grundy version, I sure hope it doesn't last).  Then again, that's just my thought.

Quote from: BettyReggie on April 07, 2016, 05:21:18 PM
I thought of a great person to play Ethel, the girl from The Middle. On The Middle Sue is odd just like Ethel.

I highly doubt any actress would leave a very successful show for a show that may not even have a future.