Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 16, 2016, 02:21:39 AM

Quote from: SAGG on April 15, 2016, 04:44:20 PM
I like your post because I respect your principles, DR. I'll give the new ones a shot for awhile because of the curiosity factor. I DO find it interesting that you'd get a least a copy of the new B & V, and not either of the new Archie or Jughead titles. Is that an influence out of your love for DeCarlo's work, since he was the main B & V artist?

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, SAGG. I will not support any of the reboot titles in the financial sense by purchasing them. I expect I will borrow a copy of the rebooted B&V (which cover variant is irrelevant) only for the purpose of satisfying my curiosity, the same as I did with the rebooted ARCHIE and JUGHEAD, which I also borrowed to read. If I can't borrow it, I won't buy it. Buying any of them would be like voting with my wallet that ACP should continue making comics in that vein, and any dollar spent on the reboot is a vote against ACP spending the company's money to give work to the classic Archie artists instead.

It's futile to support the concept of an Archie reboot in principle, regardless of how it relates to the classic Archie artists getting work with the company, and here's why: the reboot is entirely dependent for its success on courting the comic shop audience - an audience that is notoriously fickle, and furthermore an audience that has demonstrated NO love for the Archie characters in the past. Any temporary sales that ACP can manage to glean from that audience are based strictly on the novelty of the concept of putting "big name creators" to work on the Archie characters, and ACP can't possibly keep the novelty fresh enough for that audience to stick with the company's product. Look at how DC Comics alienated its faithful longtime readers with a reboot of its universe in 2011. Five years later, that company is in worse shape than it was prior to the reboot, and it's time for yet another "DC Rebirth". Now they're looking to REincorporate some of the very things they trashed as worthless in the 2011 reboot, but now it's five years later, and most of the hardcore DC addicts that they lost have moved on to other things. Novelty value doesn't last, and when the "NEW" wears off, the audience dissipates like smoke.

Ah, now I see. I apologize for assuming something else, DR...

To summarize:

1) "Classic Archie" in the form of reprints (in digests and/or digitally) will always be around in some form. The company owns them, they are already paid for.

2) Regarding NEW stories which cost the company money to produce, you are being asked to choose, whether you admit to this or not, between the New Riverdale/Archie Horror and Classic Archie. The latter has been reduced to, currently, 240 pages per year (or 20 per month, on average) exclusively by Dan Parent, and appearing in the 6 Archie digest titles. I can't really estimate the combined pages of the former, but assuming at least one of those titles appears per month, then it's 22 pages, so they're already producing more new "non-Classic Archie" stories than they are new Classic Archie stories. When the Archie Horror titles eventually return, then it will be more than 22 pages per month, on average, with the addition of the rebooted B&V title, as well.

3) If you want MORE new "non-Classic Archie" stories, then continue to buy those titles. Now, the unfortunate thing here is that since Dan Parent's Classic Archie stories are appearing exclusive in the mainly-reprint digests, there's really no way for ACP to know how many copies of the digest sales are attributable to Dan's new Classic Archie stories. But you can bet that increased sales on the "non-Classic Archie" titles isn't going to result in ACP commissioning more work from Dan Parent or any of the other former Classic Archie freelancers. If the New Riverdale/Archie Horror titles are NOT successful, then new Classic Archie stories by Dan Parent or the other former freelancers may be the only option left. Or no new Archie stories, whatsoever, only reprints. You can only be sure that continued sales of non-Classic Archie will lead to more new non-Classic Archie stories. Whichever you choose; you won't get both, however.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 16, 2016, 03:42:22 AM

The thing you need to realize is that all of the ACP alumni creators are specialists who have spent decades honing their talents in one particular vein of cartooning. Most of them have devoted nearly the entirety of their careers to working ONLY for ACP, not the half-dozen different outfits that those big-name reboot creators have.

We sure did... and, Brother! Was THAT a mistake!

Well, I can do do commissions for fans who want the characters drawn the way they're supposed to look like.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 16, 2016, 03:42:22 AM

Quote from: spazaru on April 15, 2016, 05:07:32 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 04:21:23 PM

Quote from: spazaru on April 15, 2016, 03:49:06 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 01:25:00 PM
Yes, it's exciting enough to make you forget all about those people losing their jobs, isn't it?
^^^ (Potential sarcasm alert)^^^

I embarrassed to say I don't get it, and I was raised by the most sarcastic woman I've ever met.

Seriously? You see no connection between ACP spending the company's money to hire people like Adam Hughes, and former freelancers like Ruiz, Kennedy & Kennedy, Shultz, Galvan, etc. no longer having gainful employment at the company they've worked for, for 25 years? Yesterday's news then, and let's all just move on? Nevermind how they'll manage to pay their bills? That's life, no use crying over spilt milk, it's all water under the bridge? The important thing is that we keep buying everything ACP puts out, regardless?

didn't say all that DCR; I genuinely didn't get what you were saying; thanks for explaining

Of course I'm not happy with classic Archie being phased out.  However I do like the new stuff as well.  Believe me, I've been very vocal to Archie that I want more classic stuff from the artists I love.  Obviously they aren't listening.  I've tried. 

I don't buy everything ACP puts out.  I do buy some new Riverdale stuff and a lot of digests. 

Sorry I didn't get what you meant.  I don't think anyone loves Fernando, the Kennedys, Shultz, Galvan, Dan Parent, Gisele, etc any more than I do. 

I'm not going to hate on the reboots if I enjoy them.  I think they're well done.  Just my opinion.  I'd love to see classic Archie right along side them, trust me.

This has nothing to do with hating on Mark Waid, Fiona Staples, Chip Zdarksy, Erica Henderson, or Adam Hughes. They aren't culpable of anything here. I've enjoyed the work of Waid, Zdarsky, and Hughes on other comics, and will continue to do so. ACP is hiring them to do a job to the best of their ability, the same as they would do with any of a half-dozen other comic book companies that have hired them to do work in the past, and will most likely continue to do in the future. It's a shame that it comes down to an either/or proposition, but make no mistake, that's exactly what it is. It's the Powers-That-Be at ACP who are the bad guys here. ACP has chosen to devote its limited fiscal resources to hiring the reboot creators, and in order to do so, it's necessary for them to reduce the work available to those ACP freelance alumni who have devoted 25+ years to writing and drawing for the company to zero (Dan Parent being the sole exception to the ax). Fernando Ruiz' devoting 25 years of his career as a creator at the company meant less than nothing to those in charge, and they could not even be bothered to level with him, face-to-face, about the situation as it exists. That's what makes any financial vote FOR the reboot a vote, by default, AGAINST new stories by classic Archie creators. If the reboot is turning out to be successful, then that is where the PTB at ACP are going to continue to throw their limited resources, NOT at the creation of new classic Archie stories by veteran creators.

The thing you need to realize is that all of the ACP alumni creators are specialists who have spent decades honing their talents in one particular vein of cartooning. Most of them have devoted nearly the entirety of their careers to working ONLY for ACP, not the half-dozen different outfits that those big-name reboot creators have. If they are to start submitting samples at other companies trying to get work, it's as if they're starting their careers all over again at the bottom rung of the ladder, since Archie & Friends is the only pro work that they're known for. About the best that can be said is that due to the number of pages they've worked on professionally, an editor for another company can probably rest easy in the knowledge that they can deliver the work on time. But there's a large question of style. If there's a new Batman or Spider-Man spinoff title starting up, how is Fernando Ruiz' previous resume helping him get that job? And believe me, Fernando is probably in a better position, regarding the versatility of his style, than guys like Jeff Shultz or Bill Galvan (and that's no insult to them either, it's just that they're both very good at a particular kind of style that doesn't happen to be in high demand at other publishers). So tell me who suffers most if they don't get the work from ACP, the Mark Waids and Adam Hugheses, or the guys known nearly exclusively for their work on ACP's characters?

I'm not interested in arguing, DCR.  I appreciate your comments and I agree with a lot of them. 

I hope that Fiona Staples does a cover. Her Betty on Archie #2 is awesome. And other thing I can't wait to see their new logo. I guess we will also get a blank cover too .

🌹 💐 🍁 🌾 🌴 I  just can't wait for Betty & Veronica #1. It's going to be great. I posted a picture on my Twitter page with last issue of theirs. I post the same picture of it every 30 days are so. And I'll keep a time line too . Today it's days away. I'll post the picture again Twitter on May 15. That's 30 Days .

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 04:21:23 PM

Quote from: spazaru on April 15, 2016, 03:49:06 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 01:25:00 PM
Yes, it's exciting enough to make you forget all about those people losing their jobs, isn't it?
^^^ (Potential sarcasm alert)^^^

I embarrassed to say I don't get it, and I was raised by the most sarcastic woman I've ever met.

Seriously? You see no connection between ACP spending the company's money to hire people like Adam Hughes, and former freelancers like Ruiz, Kennedy & Kennedy, Shultz, Galvan, etc. no longer having gainful employment at the company they've worked for, for 25 years? Yesterday's news then, and let's all just move on? Nevermind how they'll manage to pay their bills? That's life, no use crying over spilt milk, it's all water under the bridge? The important thing is that we keep buying everything ACP puts out, regardless?

ACP was wrong to fire Fernando and most of the rest because they were shouldn't have dropped the classic Archie style, not because they're obliged to keep them afloat.


And man you're guilting spazaru, a guy so principled he won't buy Archie books bound by exploited factory workers in Asia, for buying the reboot because boycotting it might very very slightly increase the chance of ACP rehiring their old artists, skilled abled Americans all? Even though the best one has said he doesn't want to work there anymore? I don't know, that seems a little backward. I lost my own job last month and it hasn't been easy, my new job is much crappier than my old one but thank God I have any job and live in a country with a huge safety net. I wish all the ex Archie employees luck especially Fernando but I'm sure they can take care of themselves and anything I say against their work being cut is only because I want to see more of it.

Quote from: daren on April 17, 2016, 04:14:16 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 04:21:23 PM

Quote from: spazaru on April 15, 2016, 03:49:06 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 01:25:00 PM
Yes, it's exciting enough to make you forget all about those people losing their jobs, isn't it?
^^^ (Potential sarcasm alert)^^^

I embarrassed to say I don't get it, and I was raised by the most sarcastic woman I've ever met.

Seriously? You see no connection between ACP spending the company's money to hire people like Adam Hughes, and former freelancers like Ruiz, Kennedy & Kennedy, Shultz, Galvan, etc. no longer having gainful employment at the company they've worked for, for 25 years? Yesterday's news then, and let's all just move on? Nevermind how they'll manage to pay their bills? That's life, no use crying over spilt milk, it's all water under the bridge? The important thing is that we keep buying everything ACP puts out, regardless?

ACP was wrong to fire Fernando and most of the rest because they were shouldn't have dropped the classic Archie style, not because they're obliged to keep them afloat.


And man you're guilting spazaru, a guy so principled he won't buy Archie books bound by exploited factory workers in Asia, for buying the reboot because boycotting it might very very slightly increase the chance of ACP rehiring their old artists, skilled abled Americans all? Even though the best one has said he doesn't want to work there anymore? I don't know, that seems a little backward. I lost my own job last month and it hasn't been easy, my new job is much crappier than my old one but thank God I have any job and live in a country with a huge safety net. I wish all the ex Archie employees luck especially Fernando but I'm sure they can take care of themselves and anything I say against their work being cut is only because I want to see more of it.

I don't know if all that principled on everything, Daren, but on luxuries that I don't need, I try to be.  Anyway, you have a good memory! 

Quote from: daren on April 17, 2016, 04:14:16 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 04:21:23 PM

Quote from: spazaru on April 15, 2016, 03:49:06 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 01:25:00 PM
Yes, it's exciting enough to make you forget all about those people losing their jobs, isn't it?
^^^ (Potential sarcasm alert)^^^

I embarrassed to say I don't get it, and I was raised by the most sarcastic woman I've ever met.

Seriously? You see no connection between ACP spending the company's money to hire people like Adam Hughes, and former freelancers like Ruiz, Kennedy & Kennedy, Shultz, Galvan, etc. no longer having gainful employment at the company they've worked for, for 25 years? Yesterday's news then, and let's all just move on? Nevermind how they'll manage to pay their bills? That's life, no use crying over spilt milk, it's all water under the bridge? The important thing is that we keep buying everything ACP puts out, regardless?

ACP was wrong to fire Fernando and most of the rest because they were shouldn't have dropped the classic Archie style, not because they're obliged to keep them afloat.

And man you're guilting spazaru, a guy so principled he won't buy Archie books bound by exploited factory workers in Asia, for buying the reboot because boycotting it might very very slightly increase the chance of ACP rehiring their old artists, skilled abled Americans all? Even though the best one has said he doesn't want to work there anymore? I don't know, that seems a little backward. I lost my own job last month and it hasn't been easy, my new job is much crappier than my old one but thank God I have any job and live in a country with a huge safety net. I wish all the ex Archie employees luck especially Fernando but I'm sure they can take care of themselves and anything I say against their work being cut is only because I want to see more of it.

Well, if you're buying the reboot comics, basically the message you're sending back to ACP is that "Yes, you made the right decision. You are correct, this is the kind of Archie Comics stories I would like to see ACP publishing, going forward into the future." You know, as opposed to new stories from the other guys. So even though I'm condemning their business practices as far as how they repay years of service from the people that made the company what it is (in terms of creative output), I'm also condemning their aesthetic judgment concerning what type of stories are best for these characters that they own going forward as publishers. How else can I say this plainly? To me, the rebooted titles ARE JUST NOT ARCHIE. They are totally lacking in any of the unique qualities that make me want to read Archie Comics in the first place. In short, they are just like any other comics that any other publisher could (and would) put out. Except somewhat more boring, in terms of subject material.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 17, 2016, 04:57:54 PM

Quote from: daren on April 17, 2016, 04:14:16 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 04:21:23 PM

Quote from: spazaru on April 15, 2016, 03:49:06 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 15, 2016, 01:25:00 PM
Yes, it's exciting enough to make you forget all about those people losing their jobs, isn't it?
^^^ (Potential sarcasm alert)^^^

I embarrassed to say I don't get it, and I was raised by the most sarcastic woman I've ever met.

Seriously? You see no connection between ACP spending the company's money to hire people like Adam Hughes, and former freelancers like Ruiz, Kennedy & Kennedy, Shultz, Galvan, etc. no longer having gainful employment at the company they've worked for, for 25 years? Yesterday's news then, and let's all just move on? Nevermind how they'll manage to pay their bills? That's life, no use crying over spilt milk, it's all water under the bridge? The important thing is that we keep buying everything ACP puts out, regardless?

ACP was wrong to fire Fernando and most of the rest because they were shouldn't have dropped the classic Archie style, not because they're obliged to keep them afloat.

And man you're guilting spazaru, a guy so principled he won't buy Archie books bound by exploited factory workers in Asia, for buying the reboot because boycotting it might very very slightly increase the chance of ACP rehiring their old artists, skilled abled Americans all? Even though the best one has said he doesn't want to work there anymore? I don't know, that seems a little backward. I lost my own job last month and it hasn't been easy, my new job is much crappier than my old one but thank God I have any job and live in a country with a huge safety net. I wish all the ex Archie employees luck especially Fernando but I'm sure they can take care of themselves and anything I say against their work being cut is only because I want to see more of it.

Well, if you're buying the reboot comics, basically the message you're sending back to ACP is that "Yes, you made the right decision. You are correct, this is the kind of Archie Comics stories I would like to see ACP publishing, going forward into the future." You know, as opposed to new stories from the other guys. So even though I'm condemning their business practices as far as how they repay years of service from the people that made the company what it is (in terms of creative output), I'm also condemning their aesthetic judgment concerning what type of stories are best for these characters that they own going forward as publishers. How else can I say this plainly? To me, the rebooted titles ARE JUST NOT ARCHIE. They are totally lacking in any of the unique qualities that make me want to read Archie Comics in the first place. In short, they are just like any other comics that any other publisher could (and would) put out. Except somewhat more boring, in terms of subject material.

Yeah the reboot is just a novelty but it's entertaining for what it is and at this point if it fails it seems very unlikely ACP will interpret it as reason to bring back classic Archie, they'll just try another new thing like Disney style art. Fernando said in another post that they've told him they believe a classic Archie 32 won't sell. The best way to get those artists back with Archie or another company where they can do Archie style art is to support their independent projects. Like you do in other threads.

Quote from: daren on April 17, 2016, 05:14:07 PM

Yeah the reboot is just a novelty but it's entertaining for what it is and at this point if it fails it seems very unlikely ACP will interpret it as reason to bring back classic Archie, they'll just try another new thing like Disney style art. Fernando said in another post that they've told him they believe a classic Archie 32 won't sell. The best way to get those artists back with Archie or another company where they can do Archie style art is to support their independent projects. Like you do in other threads.

And yes, I'm following those creators whose work I enjoy into other similar ventures. The reboot may be entertaining to you. It isn't to me. I like (even, on specific occasions, love) some of the things that Mark Waid does; some other things he works on... 'eh, not so much'. The Archie reboot is definitely in the latter category. I like Adam Hughes art quite a bit, but that doesn't change my opinion that he's wasting his talent doing a Betty and Veronica comic (and that's not even having seen it yet). There are a dozen things I could think of for him to work on that would interest me more. If it's a question of "if this fails, then it's all over", then I'm still unmoved to purchase.

I don't think the reboot will keep Archie in business but boycotting it wont make a difference either. If you don't like it I don't blame you for not buying it, I just do not see a moral issue about it.

Quote from: daren on April 17, 2016, 05:34:59 PM
I don't think the reboot will keep Archie in business but boycotting it wont make a difference either. If you don't like it I don't blame you for not buying it, I just do not see a moral issue about it.

I have a slight interest in the way Jughead's being written, but I have to balance that against having artwork that just really doesn't enhance the better qualities of the writing in any way (but at least I can see that Zdarsky is using classic Jughead stories as touchstones). I really do wish it was funnier, but the art isn't helping bring that out.


I keep hoping that the PTB will recognize that they're trashing almost everything (those Zdarsky touchstones excluded) that make Archie Comics unique, fun, and worthwhile, different and a breath of fresh air, instead of "OK, we give up. We'll do it the same way that the other publishers do to make it palatable for the comic shops." But I guess maybe not. It really doesn't matter if they fold in 6 months or 5 years, I guess. I just hope that they manage to get Gisele's Archie Meets Ramones out before the final collapse. Then it's all "Back issues, ahoy!" for me, at least until IDW or Dark Horse buys up the characters.

I like Erica's art better than Chip's writing, too many dream sequences now.


I don't know what ACP is thinking of right now either.   

I'm really hoping they add more variants. I think they will. I will keep looking for any news about it.