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Some questions about Adam Hughes' BETTY & VERONICA

Started by DeCarlo Rules, November 13, 2016, 12:47:16 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: steveinthecity on November 22, 2016, 11:37:59 pm
To previously echo previous thoughts, I don't believe ACP ever really archived stories based on title or subject until more recent years when editors where being called upon to provide such material.


In the past, they did maintain a library of bound volumes of the printed comics, at least up to the early 1990s, that went back to the very beginning of their publishing history. I couldn't say whether or not anyone had ever bothered to index those stories by keywords or themes or story elements or characters in any way. That would probably have been a labor-intensive project in itself. But the library was there for editors to use in looking for stories to reprint.

PTF

Okay, finally got to pick both issues up.

What I liked.

1. The art. It's Adam Hughes so you know it's going to have great art. And I actually like the story, the dialogue and the characters. And the jokes are pretty funny.

2. Crazy Betty. The best version of Betty: her being super nice and also being nutso.

3. Ethel. I'm glad he actually drew her not so pretty. Heck, Ethel exists in one of the titles! The best she could do before was being undead in Afterlife. :)

4. Heel Kevin Keller. Yeah, he hasn't said much, but I already find him way more interesting than the original. Not even close. I'm not joking.

5. Veronica. I can see some going "Too Cheryl" But it is a new universe with it's own continuity and I did find her entertaining. She's so incredibly smug and stacking everything against Betty, it's going to be great to see her lose. Favorite moment had to be the liquor license and her kissing it then winking at Betty.


What I didn't like.

1. Pop Tate. ...Um, ya couldn't draw him fat because when I first looked at him, I didn't recognize him.

2. The Hot Dog stuff. ...Um, why Hot Dog? I mean, if Hot Dog did this for the Jughead book I could understand that. Honestly, even then I'd be willing to throw logic out the window if I knew this book was going to keep on schedule. It's Archie Comics and it's Adam Hughes. Eh-eh. So we're losing page time. Plus...why can Hot Dog talk and Caramel can't? That's not fair. :)

3. Toni Topaz. She is the most popular unpopular character I've ever seen!! :)

4. The cussing. It's not so much the words as who is doing it. I just can't see any version of Betty cussing.

5. The carwash scene. Okay, you had a bunch of middle age guys taking pictures of teenage girls washing cars in 57 degree weather. I mean, it's funny, but--yyyeeeessshhh.

So yeah, it's not perfect but it's still very good. But I can see why some people would be turned off. The first issue was about a B and the next a B+.

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: SAGG on November 23, 2016, 04:26:26 am
Bolling's no longer there? Man...


No one's been fired. It's just that nobody but Dan Parent is currently getting any new assignments to draw covers or stories in the classic Archie style. There may still be some unpublished stories by Bolling that haven't seen print yet. Since many of the stories have a seasonal background, they don't print summer-themed stories in the winter digest issues and vice-versa. If they have a bunch of unpublished summer stories that didn't get printed last summer, they have to wait until next summer to publish them, and there are a finite number of digest issues that come out in the appropriate months.

BettyReggie

I'm  just so upset that this comic is coming out so slowly. What's going on? Too many delays. Do you they will change the artist soon?

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: BettyReggie on November 23, 2016, 07:50:54 pm
I'm  just so upset that this comic is coming out so slowly. What's going on? Too many delays. Do you they will change the artist soon?


#3 is the last issue for Adam Hughes.

DeCarlo Rules

November 24, 2016, 12:08:03 am #35 Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 09:02:39 am by DeCarlo Rules
Quote from: PTF on November 23, 2016, 03:01:26 pm
Toni Topaz. She is the most popular unpopular character I've ever seen!! :)


She's a Tom DeFalco creation. She's got tons of untapped potential, as demonstrated in her introductory story in Jughead Double Digest #176. Also one of the few black female characters (apart from Nancy Woods and Valerie of the Pussycats) in the ACP universe, but even in just a measly few appearances, her unique character is already better-defined than Nancy or Valerie. Mostly she just seems to get included on covers a lot because of her eye-catching character design, with magenta hair and candy-colored fashions.


steveinthecity

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on November 23, 2016, 06:21:34 am
Quote from: steveinthecity on November 22, 2016, 11:37:59 pm
To previously echo previous thoughts, I don't believe ACP ever really archived stories based on title or subject until more recent years when editors where being called upon to provide such material.


In the past, they did maintain a library of bound volumes of the printed comics, at least up to the early 1990s, that went back to the very beginning of their publishing history. I couldn't say whether or not anyone had ever bothered to index those stories by keywords or themes or story elements or characters in any way. That would probably have been a labor-intensive project in itself. But the library was there for editors to use in looking for stories to reprint.
Did I imply ACP didn't maintain any archive?   ???   Not my intent if my post came across that way.


The quick sources for my comment originated from old posts from Suzanimated (former Digest Editor) and forsythe.  Susanna had described there wasn't much done in the way of organization by theme and such for several decades.  Forsythe as we know has a much larger archive of Archie related material than ACP itself, and provides scans, photos, etc. to books being produced because the ACP archive is full of "holes" (Not meant as slight towards them) and similarly echoed Suzanimated's comments.

I don't know that I ever suggested there was no library for editors to use as reference material.


Comics!

DeCarlo Rules

November 24, 2016, 04:59:55 am #37 Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 07:19:18 am by DeCarlo Rules
Quote from: steveinthecity on November 24, 2016, 04:48:02 am
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on November 23, 2016, 06:21:34 am
Quote from: steveinthecity on November 22, 2016, 11:37:59 pm
To previously echo previous thoughts, I don't believe ACP ever really archived stories based on title or subject until more recent years when editors where being called upon to provide such material.


In the past, they did maintain a library of bound volumes of the printed comics, at least up to the early 1990s, that went back to the very beginning of their publishing history. I couldn't say whether or not anyone had ever bothered to index those stories by keywords or themes or story elements or characters in any way. That would probably have been a labor-intensive project in itself. But the library was there for editors to use in looking for stories to reprint.
Did I imply ACP didn't maintain any archive?   ???   Not my intent if my post came across that way.


The quick sources for my comment originated from old posts from Suzanimated (former Digest Editor) and forsythe.  Susanna had described there wasn't much done in the way of organization by theme and such for several decades.  Forsythe as we know has a much larger archive of Archie related material than ACP itself, and provides scans, photos, etc. to books being produced because the ACP archive is full of "holes" (Not meant as slight towards them) and similarly echoed Suzanimated's comments.

I don't know that I ever suggested there was no library for editors to use as reference material.


Just pointing out that such an indexing project, even if undertaken circa the early 1990s, might have required an unjustifiable amount of man-hours, and kept a team of research assistants (or assistant editors, or interns... I don't know if ACP ever had interns) busy for several years. Although such a database would undoubtedly prove useful to editors in the future, ACP didn't have any sort of vested interest in continuity the way Marvel and DC did (where a lot of the work might have been accomplished before even starting, based on a fanbase of knowledge). Michael L. Fleisher's (DC) Encylopedia of Super-Heroes comes to mind here...  At any rate, before the relatively modern concept of trade paperback collections, such precision in the selection of stories for digests was hardly required. It was probably more important just to try to keep track of how often a particular story was reprinted (although... they don't seem awfully concerned about that today).

Prior to a decade or so ago, it must have seemed quite simple. You'd know where to look to find Archie stories, Josie stories, Jughead stories, Betty & Veronica stories, Reggie, Mr. Weatherbee, or Moose stories. You'd know where to look to find 1-page, 2-page, and 1/2-page gag fillers (primarily the JOKE BOOKs). You could find seasonal stories simply by following the cover dates, and the only 'themes' that mattered were "Christmas" and "Summer Fun" (again, just check the cover dates). There rarely was any occasion to locate specific things like minor supporting character appearances or "that one story where Archie translated Spanish", or "all the stories built around the gag of Smithers bodily ejecting Archie from the Lodge mansion". Even when they finally did get to trade collections in the 1990s with THE BEST OF THE FORTIES... well, that was ONE decade's worth of comics to sift through. At the rate those books were coming out, they had plenty of time to do them.

If I had to guess, I'd bet when they got stuck trying to find anything in the library, they'd just consult Victor Gorelick. He'd been with the company in one capacity or another since (IIRC) 1957, so he probably had a pretty good feel for that kind of stuff.

That said, now that they're digitizing stuff, they should be doing that kind of indexing as part of the process...

steveinthecity

Quote from: PTF on November 23, 2016, 03:01:26 pm
Okay, finally got to pick both issues up.

What I liked.

1. The art. It's Adam Hughes so you know it's going to have great art. And I actually like the story, the dialogue and the characters. And the jokes are pretty funny.

2. Crazy Betty. The best version of Betty: her being super nice and also being nutso.

3. Ethel. I'm glad he actually drew her not so pretty. Heck, Ethel exists in one of the titles! The best she could do before was being undead in Afterlife. :)

4. Heel Kevin Keller. Yeah, he hasn't said much, but I already find him way more interesting than the original. Not even close. I'm not joking.

5. Veronica. I can see some going "Too Cheryl" But it is a new universe with it's own continuity and I did find her entertaining. She's so incredibly smug and stacking everything against Betty, it's going to be great to see her lose. Favorite moment had to be the liquor license and her kissing it then winking at Betty.


What I didn't like.

1. Pop Tate. ...Um, ya couldn't draw him fat because when I first looked at him, I didn't recognize him.

2. The Hot Dog stuff. ...Um, why Hot Dog? I mean, if Hot Dog did this for the Jughead book I could understand that. Honestly, even then I'd be willing to throw logic out the window if I knew this book was going to keep on schedule. It's Archie Comics and it's Adam Hughes. Eh-eh. So we're losing page time. Plus...why can Hot Dog talk and Caramel can't? That's not fair. :)

3. Toni Topaz. She is the most popular unpopular character I've ever seen!! :)

4. The cussing. It's not so much the words as who is doing it. I just can't see any version of Betty cussing.

5. The carwash scene. Okay, you had a bunch of middle age guys taking pictures of teenage girls washing cars in 57 degree weather. I mean, it's funny, but--yyyeeeessshhh.

So yeah, it's not perfect but it's still very good. But I can see why some people would be turned off. The first issue was about a B and the next a B+.
PTF, as much as I agree on the bullet points you've laid out, I'd have to downgrade much harsher.  I just feel the story is both relying too heavily on the relationship "classic" readers have with the characters while the same time putting forth something entirely new and unrelated to past incarnations, which makes the story just seem like random events. With no real nod to character history, why are they behaving as they are?


I did give extra credit to Hot Dog smoking a cigar btw.
Comics!

BettyReggie

November 24, 2016, 08:22:20 am #39 Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 09:26:20 am by BettyReggie
Even in issue one Veronica was very bitchy. Sitting while Betty raked the yard. She could helped her . But no Veronica is just so evil in this reboot. I don't see them ever becoming friends again. The scene at Pop's where Veronica walks into Pop's & Betty saw you are not welcome there. But Pop says she come in. Why would he let her? Veronica's father is trying to get rid of Pop.  When Veronica put her polished finger down on the counter, she just looked so evil.

irishmoxie

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on November 24, 2016, 12:00:56 am
Quote from: BettyReggie on November 23, 2016, 07:50:54 pm
I'm  just so upset that this comic is coming out so slowly. What's going on? Too many delays. Do you they will change the artist soon?


#3 is the last issue for Adam Hughes.



Rumor or truth? Who's the next artist?

BettyReggie


SAGG


Quote from: BettyReggie on November 24, 2016, 08:22:20 am
Even in issue one Veronica was very bitchy. Sitting while Betty raked the yard. She could helped her . But no Veronica is just so evil in this reboot. I don't see them ever becoming friends again. The scene at Pop's where Veronica walks into Pop's & Betty saw you are not welcome there. But Pop says she come in. Why would he let her? Veronica's father is trying to get rid of Pop.  When Veronica put her polished finger down on the counter, she just looked so evil.



Because I guess that's what kind of man Pop is, which is why Betty and her friends are standing up for him. I think Ronica will eventually see this, as well as how she's behaving against Betty. Besides, in Archie (SPOILER ALERT!), we see a nicer Ronica. If you've been reading that one, she tried to help a girl who had been humiliated by Cheryl at the girl's school. The girl of course, didn't believe her, but at least Ronica tried...

DeCarlo Rules

November 25, 2016, 12:37:50 am #43 Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 01:49:59 am by DeCarlo Rules
Quote from: irishmoxie on November 24, 2016, 03:07:12 pm
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on November 24, 2016, 12:00:56 am
Quote from: BettyReggie on November 23, 2016, 07:50:54 pm
I'm  just so upset that this comic is coming out so slowly. What's going on? Too many delays. Do you they will change the artist soon?


#3 is the last issue for Adam Hughes.


Rumor or truth? Who's the next artist?


Adam Hughes is an expensive talent to hire for ACP. His original contract was for three issues. I can't see that being renewed unless the book sold phenomenally well beyond expectations (and Hughes probably has a limited window of availability between his other paying assignments). There's been no announcement to date of who will follow as the new creative team on B&V, but at the rate the issues have been coming out, there's still plenty of time for them to hype a new creative team for #4. They probably knew he was going to be slow to deliver a completed issue, but they're balancing that against the marquee value of Adam Hughes' name as a main attraction. They'll need to put the book out more frequently if they're going to generate more profit, but they obviously wanted to create buzz by launching the title with a big name.

I can't tell you what comes next, but I can point you at a look at "What Might Have Been"...
http://www.adistantsoil.com/2011/09/27/m-unpublished-betty-and-veronica-art-for-archie-comics/


Fernando Ruiz

Quote from: Deb on November 20, 2016, 05:59:08 pm
  Jughead has been fun, but I get the sneaky fekeling that it isn't selling very well.



It depends on how you're setting the bar.


According to October's sales charts, Jughead sold a little over 8,000 copies. That is about 1,000 copies less than the month before. The Archie title sold about 13K which is also down about a thousand copies from the previous month.* Both titles are still selling a bit better than their pre-reboot counterparts, but the following is worth noting...


1) The creative teams of both books are paid far more than us old "classic" artists ever were! That alone makes these books more expensive to publish than they used to be.


2) The numbers of these books are artificially inflated by the number of variant covers being sold. An issue with three different variants that sells 8,000 copies does not necessarily translate into 8,000 separate individual readers! Something to think about for the Long Haul!


I'm curious to see what happens to Jughead in a few issues if his decline continues.




[size=78%]* And down a whopping EIGHTY-THREE THOUSAND copies from Archie #1![/size]


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