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The Crazy Betty/Villainous Veronica Thread!

Started by BlueBomber2015, April 15, 2016, 12:44:55 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

daren

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 06, 2016, 03:42:25 AM
Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 02:55:20 AM
And ASKING someone to wear a different coat (and it IS asking no matter how bossy she was being, she has no hold over him) is very different from grabbing someone weaker than you and SCRUBBING their face forcibly.

And wearing a coat someone else gave you isn't equal to wearing makeup someone else gave you, that's hardly identifiable.

You know if Reggie did that to her people would roast him over hot coals but when Archie does it it's just awesome. Lucky that Reggie wouldn't do that to her.

He could have shown the same backbone simply by refusing to comply with her wishes, but that wouldn't have been a funny ending ("turnabout is fair play"). He doesn't physically hurt her, only embarrass her by treating her like a petulant child, which is the way she's acting. It's a washcloth, not steel wool.


It's not turnabout to assault someone for just yelling at you and it wasn't funny either. And it doesn't matter if he hurt her (though I doubt he bothered being very gentle?) you don't get to use physical force to embarrass someone, especially someone weaker than you. That's illegal for good reason.



Quote
It's hardly even comparable to Jughead beaning Ronnie off the back of the head with a soccer ball, and everyone thought that was hilarious.


Jughead was kind of a dick there too but hitting someone in the head with a beach ball (it wasn't a soccer ball) is not the same as grabbing someone and forcibly holding them while you smear up their makeup, not even. Besides that was more like slapstick like when Moose beats up Reggie, it's the coyote/roadrunner side of Archie. The story with Archie grabbing Veronica is REALISTIC like that time Bingo Wilkin slapped his girlfriend.


Quote
Nobody even bats an eye when Veronica picks up a stray piece of wood and whips it at Archie's head, but if he wipes the makeup off her face with a wet washcloth, then he's a misogynist brute?


Yeah see my answer above. Whenever someone hits someone over the head with a piece of wood or anytime the girls clobber the boys it's more coyote/roadrunner stuff because we knows girls can't beat up boys and in real life girls almost never hit guys like that (too bad we can't say the reverse) This is a realistic Bingo-face-slapping story.

Quote
It hardly matters where the coat came from. It's HIS coat, and there's nothing shabby-looking or embarrassing about him wearing it.


I didn't say she wasnt being a bitch by demanding he switch coats (although you know what, it is kind of crappy for him to wear his other girlfriend's coat on a date with her now I think of it), just that it didn't justify what he did.
Quote
Besides, she's insulting Betty by implication that she'd give him a gift that was trashy and not worthy of being seen in public.


???  What? No she isn't. All she says is that she doesn't want him wearing Betty's coat on their date. Betty's her RIVAL.

Quote
Sometimes Veronica needs to be taken down a peg or two, and in this case it's perfectly appropriate. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Again. Veronica did not hit him in this story or do anything to deserve that. Theres enough stories where she gets "taken down a peg or two" to have it happen in stories where it's a total wtf moment.


Quote
That's guaranteed to make her think twice the next time before she makes petty demands and expects him to roll over like a good puppy dog. She'll be furious at first of course, but ultimately she'll show him more respect, and he'll have his own self-respect.


I can't believe you are still espousing this weird pipe dream of a girl like Veronica being won over by Archie assaulting her, and you thought the Betty/Reggie shippers were off for thinking Betty could reform Reggie.


QuoteI doubt Veronica would even TRY to pull that "You're not wearing that coat" snit on Reggie.


I don't know if you read the story OriginalSin posted after this one, Veronica treats Reggie way worse in that one than she treats Archie here and all Reggie does is drop her off his back. I never saw a story where he man handles Veronica and I bet I never will.

invisifan

Agreed, although she shouldn't be pushing Archie around either — he just took it too far in getting physical like that  ("I take it off when you ..." would have been better), but then it would lose the shock effect that makes it comedic ...

DeCarlo Rules

#32
You're trying too hard here, and being AWFULLY selective about which stories and what characters you apply laws of realism to in slapstick comedy, Daren. You don't get to apply the 21st century legal definitions of workplace violence or sexual harassment to this one story, either.

Veronica's being a spoiled little brat and essentially saying to him "NO! You're MY dolly, and I only want you dressed in Veronica Lodge brand approved accessories!"

I guess even Archie has his boiling point, since for once he doesn't react by hanging his head and saying "Whatever you say, my sweet little lambiekins. I don't know WHAT I was thinking, trying to dress myself like an adult!".

The story is about how Veronica reacts when Archie treats her the way she's used to treating him, when one day he unexpectedly stands up for himself, and stops being her complacent whipping boy. It's not about realism, it's about the shoe on the other foot, tit-for-tat. It's not "assault with a deadly washcloth". Assault is when you throw a deadly projectile (a hard piece of wood, for instance) at someone's head. ("OOOhhh... Archie, are you all right? Are you hurt? Do you have a concussion? How many fingers am I holding up?")  But it's FUNNY if Archie gets his just deserts to you, and not if Veronica gets hers. Did she hurt her pelvis when Reggie dumped her on the sidewalk? I guess it's funny if you're not Christopher Reeve. This in NOT, by the way, a Life With Archie story, or anything remotely close to it.

Original Sin

Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 02:17:40 AM
Quote from: Original Sin on May 05, 2016, 06:10:13 PM



This doesn't belong in a Villainous Veronica thread, it belongs in a sorely needed Archie Is An A-Hole thread

I don't think either of them is being villainous here. It's just a funny little story I wanted to post, and this thread seemed like a good place.

Original Sin


DeCarlo Rules

#35
Quote from: Original Sin on May 06, 2016, 10:15:10 AM



Ah, I get it now. It's funny (a) because it's Archie on the receiving end of physical shtick from Veronica, so no one can accuse her of being a sexist man-hater who just likes to rough up guys, and (b) it's Archie - of course he deserves it, case closed; and (c) you never even saw her lay a finger on him, just the results.

No, honestly it's just funny because the physical shtick is part of what works about the comedy of Archie comics. Normally Veronica just gets a free pass on being on the receiving end (unless it's girl-on-girl violence) because she's pretty and rich, and her behavior is excused as "just Veronica being Veronica". Something as slight as Archie rubbing the makeup off her face with a washcloth is viewed by Daren in a different light as "misogynist man-handling" though. Is Archie just being a big sexist bully? I don't buy it. It's the same comedic context, and the same rules apply. No double standard for Veronica having "protected status" because she's a girl, and Archie isn't. He doesn't try to physically hurt her. His reaction is not particularly genteel in that instance, but Veronica didn't deserve to be treated that way after the way she treated him (as a piece of her property). He just treated her the same way, to see how she'd like it. Because it's a short, funny Archie story the makeup is removed in a couple of panels, instead of Archie and Ronnie having a serious mature discussion about how she treats him, and how it makes him feel, and how would she like it if...? It gets the point across that Archie is sick of being treated like her doormat, expected to jump whenever she barks at him. He could just refuse to change his jacket and walk out on her, but then it's not funny. No realism is needed for that ending.



60sBettyandReggie


After reading that story the words sexist, mysogynist  etc, didn't come to mind. But I did think it was very out of character for Archie to react that way, but then again DeCarlo Rules was right on point when he said


QuoteI guess even Archie has his boiling point, since for once he doesn't react by hanging his head and saying "Whatever you say, my sweet little lambiekins. I don't know WHAT I was thinking, trying to dress myself like an adult!".




daren

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 06, 2016, 05:41:53 AM
You're trying too hard here, and being AWFULLY selective about which stories and what characters you apply laws of realism to in slapstick comedy, Daren.


Nope I explained my reasoning, you need to read it again.


QuoteYou don't get to apply the 21st century legal definitions of workplace violence or sexual harassment to this one story, either.


What are you talking about? This wasn't workplace violence or sexual harassment. Assault is assault in any century and I wasn't using a "legal definition," the plain definition of assault is to attack someone. When I said what Archie did today would be illegal for good reason I was pointing out it's wrong period.



QuoteBut it's FUNNY if Archie gets his just deserts to you, and not if Veronica gets hers.


I posted all kinds of stories where Veronica gets her just desserts on the old forum so you know that's not true. Hell I didn't post any stories I can remember where Archie gets his.


QuoteDid she hurt her pelvis when Reggie dumped her on the sidewalk? I guess it's funny if you're not Christopher Reeve.


What?


Quote
This in NOT, by the way, a Life With Archie story, or anything remotely close to it.


It doesn't have to be in Life With Archie to not be cartoon slapstick.


Quote
Ah, I get it now. It's funny (a) because it's Archie on the receiving end of physical shtick from Veronica, so no one can accuse her of being a sexist man-hater who just likes to rough up guys, and


I never said Archie was misogynist, I said the story was.


Quote
(b) it's Archie - of course he deserves it, case closed;


You know that's the exact description of the attitude you (and a lot of other people here) have toward Veronica. "it's Veronica - of course she deserves it, case closed."

Quote
Normally Veronica just gets a free pass on being on the receiving end (unless it's girl-on-girl violence) because she's pretty and rich, and her behavior is excused as "just Veronica being Veronica".


As if. Veronica almost never gets a free pass, she's always getting punished. She and Reggie are the ONLY characters who are always getting punished.


Quote
It's the same comedic context, and the same rules apply. No double standard for Veronica having "protected status" because she's a girl, and Archie isn't.


Lol, okay, I see. If you ran Archie Comics Veronica would get pulverized by Moose if she accidentally bumped into Midge just like the boys do because no double standards, right? That's great.  :D


Look, it's obvious from things written here and on the old forum that you (and some other people here) don't like Veronica, or at least have issues with her and like seeing her punished because your main view of her is she's a "spoiled little brat" who deserves whatever she gets, as opposed to people like me who actually like her and only like seeing her punished because she's usually so funny when it happens. That's fine, there are Archie characters I don't like either and would be happy to see fall on their face, it just happens so much more to my two favorite characters because theyre the villains, so I'll just try to let you enjoy your Veronica-humiliations without my butting in from now on. 




irishmoxie

#38
I'm gonna have to go with Daren on this one. The way this is drawn is quite violent and I can't imagine them getting away with the same comic today. This is one of those stories that is interpreted differently based on your generation. Maybe if they had replaced the washcloth with a pie it would look more slapsticky funny. Also in one frame it looks like she is crying but maybe she is just wiping her face. In contrast the one with the hat does not actually show Veronica doing the act. It's just drawn to look less violent.

DeCarlo Rules

#39
Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 01:34:46 PM
Look, it's obvious from things written here and on the old forum that you (and some other people here) don't like Veronica, or at least have issues with her and like seeing her punished because your main view of her is she's a "spoiled little brat" who deserves whatever she gets, as opposed to people like me who actually like her and only like seeing her punished because she's usually so funny when it happens. That's fine, there are Archie characters I don't like either and would be happy to see fall on their face, it just happens so much more to my two favorite characters because theyre the villains, so I'll just try to let you enjoy your Veronica-humiliations without my butting in from now on.

Daren, Daren, Daren... buddy, I really don't know what's setting you off here, but you're sounding almost as if you've never read an Archie comic before. Seriously, is Veronica in ANY physical danger here whatsoever? The danger of embarassment, and getting a dose of her own medicine, yes. Danger of being hurt by Archie? Oh, please. There's another story above where he does far LESS to her than she does to him in "Cover Up", and he winds up in the final panel looking like he went 3 rounds with a heavyweight pro boxer. But because it's ARCHIE, no harm no foul, he deserves every bruise and broken bone that Veronica gives him, right? When it's Veronica who's getting the business, she's SUCH a delicate little flower, it doesn't matter what she's done, she doesn't deserve to be so much as touched without permission. There is such a thing as reverse sexism, you know.

Where is the COMEDY supposed to be coming from in this story, in your opinion? You're reading this as "Hey guys, dames love it when you take charge and push them around -- the rough stuff turns 'em on!" That is a completely distorted BS reading of this story, and deep down, you know it. Either that, or you've never read an Archie comic before. Or never studied Harry Lucey's style of slapstick cartooning.

Forget about how much you hate Archie for a minute, and just treat this story as a standalone. The only thing you need to make note of here is how Veronica treats Archie like a worm. And in other stories, he IS a worm and deserves such treatment, but not here. Here he is the deliverer of whatever poetic justice exists (in an Archie story). USUALLY, he's the recipient, so don't be confused. ARCHIE is the protagonist of this story, the feckless loser put-upon once too often who finally grows a new spine. He does nothing here (forget ANY other stories where he did) to deserve her treating him like dirt. She treats him like she OWNS him, like he's her personal property. Even if you bring NO prior knowledge of anything else about Archie to the story, you can pretty much assume there's nothing unusual in how Veronica is treating Archie here, no unusual extenuating circumstances. This is the way she treats him ALL the time (you can assume, for the purposes of this one story), and this one time, he's had enough of it and decides to reach deep down inside and pull out some gumption to stand up to her. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but I'll try it one more time. If Archie all of a sudden starts behaving like a real person in the real world in this story, and not a cartoon person in a cartoon world, then the STORY IS OVER. There's nothing funny to be made from the situation, and he either has a serious walk-out/break-up scene with Veronica in order to preserve his own ("just found it") self-respect, or they have a angst-ridden argument/discussion about the nature of their relationship. That can't happen, because it's an Archie story that needs to have a snappy, funny ending that will probably be about "The Worm Turns". The degree of reality that you're trying to impute to this story just doesn't exist, and it CAN'T exist. Just like the broken, battered, and beaten Archie in that other story will miraculously heal himself in time to appear in the first panel of the next story, so will Veronica acquire amnesia of her comeuppance in THIS story. It's just a cartoon, so if it's not funny, you want it to be real too badly. Or somehow you just canNOT see where Veronica is mistreating Archie in any way in this story, in which case you probably believe she never HAS done anything to Archie that he didn't deserve. In which case, I'm wasting my time trying to make you see things any differently.

And maybe part of the problem here is in what you're reading in that ONE panel where Archie pushes the washcloth onto her face. Harry Lucey's style is to exaggerate, exaggerate, exaggerate -- every action is drawn to be heightened and more extreme to make it more comedic, more slapstick, faster, more furious, but you're reading that extreme exaggeration as force and violence, as if this were a 'serious' superhero comic you're reading. Seriously. What is there about THIS story that's so different than any other Harry Lucey story where things go CRASH-BOOM-BANG ? It looks more exaggerated than what is 'really' happening, in context, because that's just his extreme style of drawing. It's in ALL his stories, and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's meant to make every action look FUNNIER, not more violent.

You are totally over-sensitized about this Veronica thing. She's the villain here, and she gets the tables turned on her and gets treated by Archie as HIS personal property, to show her how it feels to live under her boot heel. SHE doesn't like Archie wearing the coat Betty gave HIM -- HE doesn't like Veronica wearing the makeup Reggie gave HER. If she won't tolerate the former, then he won't tolerate the latter. Why is it so hard to see the parallel here? She kicked him in the ribs one time too many, and he's not asking her. He'll ditch the coat, but the makeup HAS to go as part of the deal. If he pleads and whines about it, and begs her to remove the makeup then the story's not funny. The humor isn't coming from what you see as him overpowering her by force. You're just reading way, WAY too much into that. Is he upset about it? Sure he is, but that's not the same as "assault", which is a complete fabrication on your part. Nobody is seeing that in this story but you. CONTEXT. It's an Archie story. It's got to be funny. Nobody involved in the production of this story is pushing male-on-female violence, or whatever you are inferring as going on here, as a good thing. Get over it, it's not there.

daren

I'm not going over all that again, it seems you didn't read my post. New points though:


You make it sound as if Harry Lucey maybe wrote this. He probably didn't, he's not credited as a writer in any of his stories I've seen. Or as if the violence in the story is only because of his art style. It's not.


You're right, it's not legally assault, it's assault and battery. Don't try it at home kids!


I'm not oversensitized about Veronica, this story's exceptional.I would take offense if Archie did that to any girl, though if the girl was any other character a lot more people would agree it's wrong.


"She's the villain here, and she gets the tables turned on her and gets treated by Archie as HIS personal property, to show her how it feels to live under her boot heel."

If he lives under her boot heel that is his choice, she doesn't force him into it like he forced his crap on her in this story. No justification for his actions except that he felt like being a dick and he gets patted on the back for it, yeah I don't really understand that, but whatever. Continue with the Ronnie comeuppance stories, I like most of them and I doubt anything that bad will pop up again for a while.




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DeCarlo Rules

#41
Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 11:12:22 PM
I'm not going over all that again, it seems you didn't read my post. New points though:

You make it sound as if Harry Lucey maybe wrote this. He probably didn't, he's not credited as a writer in any of his stories I've seen. Or as if the violence in the story is only because of his art style. It's not.

What you're reading as "violence" IS Harry Lucey's art style (no, I don't think he wrote it, but he's responsible for the visual interpretation of the script, so he "writes" the pictures and controls how you see the end result of the writer's script descriptions). The only violence here is slapstick CARTOON violence of the pie-in-the-face kind. Only in this story, it's washcloth-in-the-face. It's not exaggerated by the yardstick of Harry Lucey slapstick (any more than is normal for him). It's totally consistent with the way he treats slapstick action in other stories. Comparing what happens in this story to a hypothetical situation where Moose Mason beats the crap out of Veronica for jostling Midge is such a bizarre distortion of the way "Archie reality" works that I can't even address it. (Yes, I did read what you wrote, but the distorted parallels you're making just don't make any sense. You can accept that Veronica can beat the crap out of Archie for comedic effect and the end result LOOKS exactly the same as if Moose beat him up. You can accept V. bouncing a piece of wood off Archie's noggin, but not the pie-in-the-face slapstick of Veronica getting a washcloth in the face (that hurts her no more than a pie, or a ball bounced off the back of her head) to remove her makeup. SOMEhow, in this one story, the cartoon shenanigans "get real" for you and I can't see it. I can't see it at all. I'm at a loss to explain it in any other way than that in your mind, Veronica cannot be on the end of slapstick as delivered by ARCHIE, because then it becomes "violence". If Betty or Jughead had done the same thing (although I can't think of a story setup to motivate that behavior on either of their parts) you'd be laughing along with everyone else, if the picture Harry Lucey drew was exactly the same except with the replacement of Archie by Betty or Jughead. But because it's Archie, he doesn't get the same pass. You mentioned Reggie before being in the same position, but I honestly don't think you'd have had the same reaction as you do here. I suspect you'd have found a way to laugh that off as just Reggie being himself. You might not like him for it, but then Reggie hardly ever has legitimate justification for how he behaves because of some previous mistreatment he received from someone else.

I don't hate Veronica. In a lot of stories she can be bratty but charming, and there are some where she hides a heart of gold beneath her snooty exterior. The characters always have to change a little to suit the demands of each different story, but there are just some stories where she behaves badly and doesn't do anything otherwise to redeem herself. This is one of those. You can't allow your prior knowledge of any of her redeeming qualities in those other stories to affect how you view her in this story, nor your prior knowledge of Archie's bad behavior in other stories to inform his character in this story. Only to the extent that Veronica's bad behavior in this story reiterates similar behavior in prior stories does it have a cumulative effect, the built-in assumption based on her behavior here being that this is no isolated incident of unusual behavior on her part, but rather part of her usual pattern of behavior. Conversely, the story makes it clear that Archie's behavior at the end of the story on the last page IS a departure from his usual behavior. None of that should be unclear to anyone reading the story. This, contrary to the usual scheme of things, is one of the very few stories of role reversal where Archie is winning, and he has justification for it, but you just can't seem to abide that concept because it's Veronica who's the goat, and Archie delivering the poetic justice. Maybe because of all the stories where he gets off scot free by mistreating Betty (but he's the villain there). That's a different kind of "winning" because it's Betty who's the injured party (hardly ever in any physical way), and it's clear that Archie is the fink. But there are plenty of stories where Veronica is the fink, and gets away with it too. What's forcing Archie to sit there and take Veronica's treatment of him? Why doesn't he just dump her and walk away? Well, in THIS story, it's because that's not a funny ending. In the larger sense, it's because it's in his contract. Archie is a virtual puppet of the writers in the employ of ACP and has to follow whatever script is written for him, and take whatever lumps he gets, get the doormat treatment from Ronnie, or be either the bad guy or the good guy in a Betty story. It's a condition of employment, so he has to do whatever makes for a funny story. Frequently that means he's taking his cartoon knocks, or groveling like a beaten dog. The thing that makes this story work is that it sets up a somewhat familiar situation of Archie being wrapped around Veronica's little finger, and then (twist) turns it into an opportunity for the wheel of karma to go round and Veronica to be on the receiving end. We (well, except you) applaud Archie for putting his foot down and not taking it from Ronnie any more, and turning the slapstick payoff karma back in her direction. It feels satisfying because she's given him the justification in this story. If you're looking at it as  -- would you or I do something like that? -- then you're misconstruing the action out of context, because you and I are not cartoon characters who live in a world where every incident has to have a funny (and usually slapstick, if drawn by Harry Lucey) payoff, and then the reset button is hit again before the next episode begins.

Why don't you simply tell me how the story should have ended? Write the last page the way you would have written it, and tell us what the drawings should be showing. You can make any modifications you want after Veronica has demanded that Archie take off the coat, either slight or totally different. Your only requirement is that the story has to be wrapped up in one page and have a funny ending.

daren

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 07, 2016, 01:19:29 AM
Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 11:12:22 PM
I'm not going over all that again, it seems you didn't read my post. New points though:

You make it sound as if Harry Lucey maybe wrote this. He probably didn't, he's not credited as a writer in any of his stories I've seen. Or as if the violence in the story is only because of his art style. It's not.

What you're reading as "violence" IS Harry Lucey's art style (no, I don't think he wrote it, but he's responsible for the visual interpretation of the script, so he "writes" the pictures and controls how you see the end result of the writer's script descriptions). The only violence here is slapstick CARTOON violence of the pie-in-the-face kind.


It's the other way around, Harry Lucey's extreme art style is making you think it's cartoon violence, it's not. The only explanation of cartoon violence that makes any sense is violence that can't be explained any other plausible way than that it's happening in a cartoon world. Moose stomping Reggie is cartoon violence, he comes back in the next story good as new. Betty or Veronica beating up Archie is probably cartoon violence, we know they're not that bloodthirsty or as strong as him, he wouldn't stand for it over and over either. Jughead bouncing a ball of Veronica's head, maybe cartoon violence, its a fine line but not that bad either way. Archie grabbing Veronica and grinding a washcloth in her face? NOT cartoon violence. He's strong enough and creep enough sometimes to do it, nothing in the story makes it unreal.


QuoteComparing what happens in this story to a hypothetical situation where Moose Mason beats the crap out of Veronica for jostling Midge is such a bizarre distortion of the way "Archie reality" works that I can't even address it.


??? I wrote that after you wrote 'No double standards for Veronica having "protected status" because she's a girl, and Archie isn't' 'what's good for the gander' all that. If you think she shouldn't be protected from guy violence you should be okay with her getting stomped by Moose just like the guys. It'd be OOC for him but he is sometimes, in a few stories he beat up Dilton.



Quote
You can accept V. bouncing a piece of wood off Archie's noggin, but not the pie-in-the-face slapstick of Veronica getting a washcloth in the face


No Irishmoxie was right when she said a pie in the face, playful slapstick, is not the same as a washcloth in the face with Archie treating Veronica like a little kid he has a right to punish. He had to rub it in her face hard to get all the makeup off too.


Quote
(that hurts her no more than a pie, or a ball bounced off the back of her head)


A slap in the face doesn't hurt anymore than accidentally burning your finger on a match physically, emotionally I think a little worse...


QuoteIf Betty or Jughead had done the same thing (although I can't think of a story setup to motivate that behavior on either of their parts) you'd be laughing along with everyone else


If Betty did it, ok, they're both girls. If Jughead did it in the same context frack no it wouldn't be ok, this is no bouncing ball. I mean...it DOES make it creepier that Archies her boyfriend, makes you wonder what else might happen, but it would not be ok for Jughead to do that.


QuoteI suspect you'd have found a way to laugh that off as just Reggie being himself.


Reggie's the only one of the main five who never does that stuff to her so I cant imagine it, sorry.  :P


QuoteYou can't allow your prior knowledge of any of her redeeming qualities in those other stories to affect how you view her in this story, nor your prior knowledge of Archie's bad behavior in other stories to inform his character in this story.


Oh come on nobody can juggle that much (I bet you couldn't do it reading a Betty story from her crazy era where Archie "rightly" punishes her for stalking him, neither could I)


QuoteMaybe because of all the stories where he gets off scot free by mistreating Betty


Yeah, takes some nerve for him to get holier than thou when he dumps on someone else all the time but the main bad is him pushing around a girl.


QuoteBut there are plenty of stories where Veronica is the fink, and gets away with it too.


In most of them she doesnt.


QuoteArchie is a virtual puppet of the writers in the employ of ACP and has to follow whatever script is written for him, and take whatever lumps he gets, get the doormat treatment from Ronnie, or be either the bad guy or the good guy in a Betty story.


Wait why are we going all meta suddenly, you didn't defend Veronica by saying she's the puppet of the writers too who has to follow her script?


QuoteWhy don't you simply tell me how the story should have ended? Write the last page the way you would have written it, and tell us what the drawings should be showing. You can make any modifications you want after Veronica has demanded that Archie take off the coat, either slight or totally different. Your only requirement is that the story has to be wrapped up in one page and have a funny ending.


It's not like God wrote the first page and told ACP to finish it, maybe just write a whole nother story? Here's an ending: They shrink all the panels to fit one last one of Veronica kicking Archie's butt. I'd laugh.






daren




Uh-oh, Veronica thinks my post is scary long, she says it sounds like the product of an unbalanced mind, she wants to know why we don't get back to posting stories of her.  :)  Okay I'll look for a good one.

DeCarlo Rules

#44
Quote from: daren on May 08, 2016, 02:57:45 AM
It's not like God wrote the first page and told ACP to finish it, maybe just write a whole nother story? Here's an ending: They shrink all the panels to fit one last one of Veronica kicking Archie's butt. I'd laugh.

I'm not going to further belabor the topic by going point by point. I'll merely summarize my position by noting that you're applying an entirely different standard of interpretation of realism to this story than you would to a typical Archie story (by which I mean, NOT one from one of those titles like LIFE WITH ARCHIE, either volume, the context of which series is set up slightly differently from the outset). This is a typical Archie short from a typical Archie comic, and no different in that respect from a hundred others from the same approximate time period in its level of cartoon reality. While there do exist a few atypical examples (the stories where the fourth wall is broken and the characters get meta) of reality which I'd deem "even MORE than" typically cartoony, this is not a didactic lesson, it's comedy, and Veronica is never in any danger of harm. In fact that danger is so minimally portrayed here that I must conclude that that is the source of your confusion. If the slapstick action had been MORE exaggerated then maybe it would be more obvious to you.  I notice that every time you need to argue your point your need to invoke very selective (by which I mean highly interpretive) words to describe the action, like "assault", "grinding", "scouring", etc. in an attempt to try to link the slapstick to real violence.

(*Sigh*) And now I need to digress one last time and mention that -- since I brought up the topic of "didactic lesson" stories, a few examples of which do exist in the Archie canon, but they are atypical, and somewhat in-your-face obvious... but this is NOT one of them -- while I may have euphemistically referred to Archie "teaching her a lesson" in an earlier post, in order to forestall a final nit-pick, I need to explain that I referred there only to the internal dynamics of the story's comedy elements... someone does something, and it has consequences that backfire on them. This story isn't a didactic lesson because (unlike say, a few stories where Archie and the gang try to teach the readers that prejudice against race is bad), Archie 'teaching Veronica a lesson' in the story is no different than Moose 'teaching Reggie a lesson' by beating him up for looking at Midge. In no way is that intended by the creators of the story (Frank Doyle, most likely, and Harry Lucey) to serve as an example which readers should take to heart and emulate, about how men should treat women, any more than a story with Moose beating up Reggie is intended to serve to the readers as a lesson on how the readers should deal with potential rivals who might seek to steal their girlfriends or boyfriends. It's not a didactic lesson story intended to teach the readers anything about reality. It's simply a slapstick comedy whose ending stems from consequences that result from the actions of the character on the receiving end of the joke from their actions earlier in the story.

I'll concede that there's nothing further I could possibly say that will change your mind about how you feel about it, while still disagreeing with your interpretation of the story in principle. Nothing you've said has changed my belief that the writer and artist of this story created it with no misogynistic intent, either consciously or unconsciously, and (speculatively, since I have no real way of confirming) that most readers aren't reading it that way either.

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