Unfortunately, I don't think this thread will ever be as epic as its original counterpart but I loved sharing those stories as Jughead and Veronica are a great comedic team, and of course because I am a shipper.
I'll start us off with a classic by Samm Schwartz. It perfectly captures their dynamic: their compelling need to be jerks and annoy one another.
-Thrillho AKA BrightestDay
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F41.media.tumblr.com%2Fe92dd6501b01fdd7b1a1715aaf2a05b9%2Ftumblr_n9ftituj3J1trm3ido1_540.png&hash=7550b22ea6a47a6e9c51cd3164535bfdeafce8be)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F41.media.tumblr.com%2Face2344a3c1074cad9117dd9f1a4ec4f%2Ftumblr_n9ftituj3J1trm3ido2_500.png&hash=ed74c54c79094394e6140e354cc9104f8b04c29c)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F41.media.tumblr.com%2Facc187821b023e3f58193f1616143bab%2Ftumblr_n9ftituj3J1trm3ido3_500.png&hash=cda4ca30eef1d79c94fba9eb64e09140cd93bce8)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F41.media.tumblr.com%2Fd8b81132154a49822949e07faaef5cf4%2Ftumblr_n9ftituj3J1trm3ido4_500.png&hash=705e8980f872c1225bc1eff08d018d0e9eae6a79)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F40.media.tumblr.com%2F9681d3808f5d1f1766958d7da9e07273%2Ftumblr_n9ftituj3J1trm3ido5_500.png&hash=8577499a60b270852ebf29505494c3eb826eac5f)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F40.media.tumblr.com%2F884c730788b2a21088d80faaac5eb12b%2Ftumblr_n9ftituj3J1trm3ido6_500.png&hash=be85cfe43b4e243ae6a5e62a06759911ec560414)
That remains one of my favorite Archie stories. Absolutely hilarious.
I remember seeing a story here before the server purge that involves slaves for a day where Veronica used Juggie as her slave for a day, i forgot the name of it though.
Quote from: BlueBomber2015 on April 10, 2016, 03:21:50 AM
I remember seeing a story here before the server purge that involves slaves for a day where Veronica used Juggie as her slave for a day, i forgot the name of it though.
I only have the last page :( The laptop I had that story on got stolen >:(
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F41.media.tumblr.com%2Fd6db78136b4541c778313e96d490ec1a%2Ftumblr_n7142ttb0j1trm3ido1_1280.jpg&hash=0af074b3d2e8f3b2622655d8ad8199483618cb78)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archie-111-p34.342/preview/)
Oh, Original Sin you never disappoint. :2funny:
Here is a little something from the new Jughead. I'm sorry if the art offends anyone.
(https://41.media.tumblr.com/157312b5c4cbb2ed7f402684e2960261/tumblr_o5lm0gjJ5S1tyyd3wo2_250.jpg)
(https://40.media.tumblr.com/947b1882df56001777f84daf6e3f1f58/tumblr_o5lm0gjJ5S1tyyd3wo1_540.jpg)
Do you think we'll see any meaningful Jughead vs Veronica in Jughead's new series, or has that all been done away with?
Quote from: Thrillho on April 13, 2016, 08:47:22 PM
Oh, Original Sin you never disappoint. :2funny:
Here is a little something from the new Jughead. I'm sorry if the art offends anyone.
(https://41.media.tumblr.com/157312b5c4cbb2ed7f402684e2960261/tumblr_o5lm0gjJ5S1tyyd3wo2_250.jpg)
(https://40.media.tumblr.com/947b1882df56001777f84daf6e3f1f58/tumblr_o5lm0gjJ5S1tyyd3wo1_540.jpg)
Do you think we'll see any meaningful Jughead vs Veronica in Jughead's new series, or has that all been done away with?
I guess Derek Charm starts the next issue of Jughead. That is horrendous.
Quote from: Thrillho on April 13, 2016, 08:47:22 PM
Oh, Original Sin you never disappoint. :2funny:
Here is a little something from the new Jughead. I'm sorry if the art offends anyone.
(https://41.media.tumblr.com/157312b5c4cbb2ed7f402684e2960261/tumblr_o5lm0gjJ5S1tyyd3wo2_250.jpg)
(https://40.media.tumblr.com/947b1882df56001777f84daf6e3f1f58/tumblr_o5lm0gjJ5S1tyyd3wo1_540.jpg)
Do you think we'll see any meaningful Jughead vs Veronica in Jughead's new series, or has that all been done away with?
This is much, much scarier than Afterlife with Archie.
And sometimes they don't feud, they kiss instead :o
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2F11hqbr4.jpg&hash=4ff190e6fbfc7918cbe56bde7bd2da5066303c53)
If only to annoy Reggie — ::) probably a valid rationale ;)
Quote from: invisifan on April 14, 2016, 04:07:42 PM
If only to annoy Reggie — ::) probably a valid rationale ;)
Looks like Reggie is about to give Jughead a kiss on the ear. :)
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on April 14, 2016, 02:29:36 PM
And sometimes they don't feud, they kiss instead :o
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2F11hqbr4.jpg&hash=4ff190e6fbfc7918cbe56bde7bd2da5066303c53)
HA! Great story. There is a surprising amount of kissing between those two considering how they loathe each other. The last Jughead/Veronica thread pretty much ended up becoming a shipping thread. ;)
Luckily, I used to upload some of my stories to Photobucket so I didn't lose everything. One of the few I still have:
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV_and_friends_232_wow_p1.png&hash=89723f786851955fd72d5c1725f0b8812261b6f9) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/BampV_and_friends_232_wow_p1.png.html)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV_and_friends_232_wow_p2.png&hash=268fbc189651c50bbff343a838b8a97694012cbf) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/BampV_and_friends_232_wow_p2.png.html)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV_and_friends_232_wow_p3.png&hash=bc0a08d3bad34f2e3c3beac9323180b079fe241b) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/BampV_and_friends_232_wow_p3.png.html)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV_and_friends_232_wow_p4.png&hash=906dbaf372a919e73221b51f4c3cbc916bc3ad05)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV_and_friends_232_wow_p5.png&hash=610a9950f2a13d626382b108826f30a75ea8dd74) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/BampV_and_friends_232_wow_p5.png.html)
Quote from: Thrillho on April 15, 2016, 01:46:52 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV_and_friends_232_wow_p4.png&hash=906dbaf372a919e73221b51f4c3cbc916bc3ad05)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D "I'm not SUPER SILLY!"
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F3970b56.jpg&hash=fe32a9da26e881b012c3f83498396814804f247e)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fe8df40a.jpg&hash=9e0beb9a002c37118d9a64da9b253c4eae8ec5e9)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F5d7e6a1.jpg&hash=7b21694d1e6755f5cf36615bf477097168673baf)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F8480bfa.jpg&hash=ec1805f9ba48f641cda47f436a9027e405d3b81b)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fad145ef.jpg&hash=c4f9d7277a14a0d7c3adfe326449dbc0bacd729d)
All you really need is love. ;)
Some of the stories we had in the original thread were just too funny, if I can find them again I will re-upload them. Now trying to find that story where Jughead and Veronica cause a scandal by living alone together in a mountain cabin. ;)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_1313.jpg&hash=7a2f58d9fffe376dfad646f0be47dd5199da7015)
"Chubby" ;D
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fb33ecde.jpg&hash=46438a7adf691f85d41da30d7d773c5f22f1ce85)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fca4b730.jpg&hash=96cda1b31645af6c0d6064fb3a9f56af839b35d4)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fbe064af.jpg&hash=2662f03297eb16d9bb1df1ebe92c98548a687f03)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fea019c5.jpg&hash=9fdc3b0448423ca21570e477da5a14404e9fe420)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fe2a1fce.jpg&hash=1ae32103ae4f885e9c706c88d06d1b609f4e666e)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fe03122e.jpg&hash=263193b9ef61f64c59992eb0e83080804cc2f4b5)
Perfect way to greet each other when your constantly fighting with each other. :2funny:
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi187.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx9%2Fblackcanary2000%2Fmore%2520pca%2Fjugheadtounge.jpg&hash=8027ee7454cc9cc3a9f84c0552d6f2ce5ade0a1a)
I found this story:
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/sappylazyjugheadveronicastory.400/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/sappylazyjugheadveronicastory2.401/preview/)
I'm only going to post that much, both to keep the story saleable and because I think the rest
of it sucks. Wow those reasons should cancel each other out but what the hell. A shame, it got off to a great start.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/kookieearrings.402/preview/)
That sounds OOC for Jughead to say unless he just likes insulting Veronica.
Feud? What feud? ;D
(https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/759231.jpg)
The crafty look in Ronnie's eyes tells me she's got some devious plan that has nothing to do with romance.
Quote from: daren on April 28, 2016, 03:18:41 AM
The crafty look in Ronnie's eyes tells me she's got some devious plan that has nothing to do with romance.
Try telling that to
Archie ! :2funny:
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archies-reaction.403/preview/)
Tod Smith, another ex-Archie penciler. I don't see his stories that much, but he did a good job here.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/sappylazyjugheadveronicastory2.401/preview/)
Quote from: kassandralove on April 28, 2016, 05:54:51 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160428%2F97b602fa5113366d3a60dad166d06137.jpg&hash=b6523e3cb3efbd153f81279398d5c4e60508bf05)
Lol off topic
Oh, it's totally on topic! :D
Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 09:34:17 AM
Quote from: kassandralove on April 28, 2016, 05:54:51 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20160428%2F97b602fa5113366d3a60dad166d06137.jpg&hash=b6523e3cb3efbd153f81279398d5c4e60508bf05)
Lol off topic
Oh, it's totally on topic! :D
Is it just my imagination, or is Betty, more than any other character, the one most aware that there's an audience out there watching her? Panels like the one above, where she looks out at the audience and winks, or talks to no one in particular in the story (meaning, she's talking for the audience's benefit) seem more common for Betty than any of the other characters.
I found that story Jug and Veronica cause a scandal. ;D
Ronnie believes that Archie and Betty are up to no good in the small hours. She plans to follow Archie's car.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F25e0dd0.jpg&hash=fcd79f43a6d30fa1fbda3cfb02da97ac71399e34)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F20bfac8.jpg&hash=7f6031648c234956e8181fd03f97197d19e8caea)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F217ef81.jpg&hash=7c498c67804bd4526e82fb8de72c79f54743c3fc)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F27b9378.jpg&hash=6c2a419738c3bbdfa7de80c72cf23abeb7690308)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F427db2c.jpg&hash=b6209a6d24686d05d60648f0e5a326776a593178)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F3d20a22.jpg&hash=09bd6232d752f5ea4d51b6b2229318062c4727b0)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F3dc47dd.jpg&hash=606244a8a4c5bf736c2aa5a3e0f4576f2293c3de)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F42ee111.jpg&hash=3ce52cfd278c9604776b417d824c1ba3cfb3537b)
Mr Lodge is hilarious! ;D "I'm not taking your love away from you!"
Thanks for posting that story, its one of the best.
Here's one that has a page of Veronica and Jughead although just a page, this still seems like the best thread for it. I took half the panels out.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/yourhumbleserpent1.408/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/yourhumbleserpent2.409/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/yourhumbleserpent3.410/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/yourhumbleserpent3-5.416/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/yourhumbleserpent4.411/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/yourhumbleserpent5.412/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/yourhumbleserpent6.413/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/yourhumbleserpent7.414/preview/)
Quote from: GingerGal on April 27, 2016, 04:52:30 PM
Perfect way to greet each other when your constantly fighting with each other. :2funny:
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi187.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx9%2Fblackcanary2000%2Fmore%2520pca%2Fjugheadtounge.jpg&hash=8027ee7454cc9cc3a9f84c0552d6f2ce5ade0a1a)
Dan Parent handles the Veronica-Jughead feud better than anybody. With him it's entirely verbal, but there are some great zingers he manages to work in there on both sides. Besides that, he gets to show how well each of them understand the other's psychology, with information implied or withheld leading to the predicted effect on either side. Jughead really got the better of Veronica by preventing anyone from cluing her in about Kevin being gay.
*Ronnie singing* ♪♪ I kissed a Jug and I liked it ♪♪
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/juggie-kisses-ronnie.417/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/veronicashedgehog.423/preview/)
You tell em Ronnie!
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jvbydphalloween.433/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jvbydphalloween2.434/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jvbydphalloween2.434/preview/)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.popoptiq.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F10%2FAfterlifeWithArchie1_Zombie.png&hash=4928aa55e7698f90f0562c4c5e6e1cbe74c734d6)
If you like that, Veronica -- you're gonna LOVE this costume!
^ Ugh, those lips,those cheeks --reasons why I don't like Parent's style.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/ugly-lips.435/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/thegiftofa-lifetime-archie-giantseriesmagazine606.437/preview/)
Oh, how she loves him :D
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on May 01, 2016, 07:20:58 PM
^ Ugh, those lips,those cheeks --reasons why I don't like Parent's style.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/ugly-lips.435/preview/)
He draws all the women that way. At least it's better than what Erica scribbles. :2funny:
It doesn't really bother me, he more than makes up for it in other ways.
He's better than most.....
Quote from: Mr.Lodge on May 02, 2016, 01:34:11 AM
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on May 01, 2016, 07:20:58 PM
^ Ugh, those lips,those cheeks --reasons why I don't like Parent's style.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/ugly-lips.435/preview/)
He draws all the women that way. At least it's better than what Erica scribbles. :2funny:
I know he draws all of them that way. It bothers me. He's my least favorite artist of the Classic style artists. But yes, you are right, Erica is even worse, luckily I don't read the reboot series so I don't come across her awful scribbles all the time ;)
Quote from: daren on May 02, 2016, 02:38:39 AM
It doesn't really bother me, he more than makes up for it in other ways.
It's a slight annoyance; an artistic quirk. There is NO WAY that that even begins to negate all the good work he's done for Archie Comics. If it were not for Dan Parent, I honestly do not believe that Archie Comics would have survived the last 5 years, maybe the last 10 years. They might still have gone on cranking out all-reprint digests, but that's about all. You can dislike his style all you want, but he's been more important to the company in the 21st century than anyone, and kept the company from eroding faster than it would have without him. I don't say that as a slight to any of the other artists that worked for ACP until now, it's just a fact. He's not just an artist who draws the scripts handed to him. He's a character creator, an ace graphic designer, and one of the best writers the company has had in the last 25 years. That's the reason (again, no slight intended to the others) that he's the sole surviving classic Archie creator.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 02, 2016, 02:02:50 PM
Quote from: daren on May 02, 2016, 02:38:39 AM
It doesn't really bother me, he more than makes up for it in other ways.
It's a slight annoyance; an artistic quirk. There is NO WAY that that even begins to negate all the good work he's done for Archie Comics. If it were not for Dan Parent, I honestly do not believe that Archie Comics would have survived the last 5 years, maybe the last 10 years. They might still have gone on cranking out all-reprint digests, but that's about all. You can dislike his style all you want, but he's been more important to the company in the 21st century than anyone, and kept the company from eroding faster than it would have without him. I don't say that as a slight to any of the other artists that worked for ACP until now, it's just a fact. He's not just an artist who draws the scripts handed to him. He's a character creator, an ace graphic designer, and one of the best writers the company has had in the last 25 years.
Be that as it may, the guy draws an ugly face profile :P
Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 05:50:46 PM
I found that story Jug and Veronica cause a scandal. ;D
Ronnie believes that Archie and Betty are up to no good in the small hours. She plans to follow Archie's car.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F25e0dd0.jpg&hash=fcd79f43a6d30fa1fbda3cfb02da97ac71399e34)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F20bfac8.jpg&hash=7f6031648c234956e8181fd03f97197d19e8caea)
<snip>
Mr Lodge is hilarious! ;D "I'm not taking your love away from you!"
I love that story. The hilarious part is that no one seems bothered, Mr. Lodge least of all, but then again he is a Jughead/Veronica shipper
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F40.media.tumblr.com%2Fdfa3f7a29984d64c782baf54fb52a4c3%2Ftumblr_n8vazqcEMS1trm3ido4_1280.jpg&hash=6750c27200a5f2f5d9c1d539e74c0eaeff24ca6c)
[/size]Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on May 01, 2016, 07:20:58 PM^ Ugh, those lips,those cheeks --reasons why I don't like Parent's style.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/ugly-lips.435/preview/)
Despite that, I really love that his styling of the characters is often variable, giving the girls different hairstyles and trendy clothes befitting modern trends.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 02, 2016, 02:02:50 PM
Quote from: daren on May 02, 2016, 02:38:39 AM
It doesn't really bother me, he more than makes up for it in other ways.
It's a slight annoyance; an artistic quirk. There is NO WAY that that even begins to negate all the good work he's done for Archie Comics. If it were not for Dan Parent, I honestly do not believe that Archie Comics would have survived the last 5 years, maybe the last 10 years. They might still have gone on cranking out all-reprint digests, but that's about all. You can dislike his style all you want, but he's been more important to the company in the 21st century than anyone, and kept the company from eroding faster than it would have without him. I don't say that as a slight to any of the other artists that worked for ACP until now, it's just a fact. He's not just an artist who draws the scripts handed to him. He's a character creator, an ace graphic designer, and one of the best writers the company has had in the last 25 years. That's the reason (again, no slight intended to the others) that he's the sole surviving classic Archie creator.
He's awesome but I would guess the main reason they kept him last was that he's so connected to Kevin.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/rudejughead.440/preview/)
Forget what I said in the other threads about Jughead always being sweet and nice.
Quote from: Thrillho on May 02, 2016, 05:15:54 PM
I love that story. The hilarious part is that no one seems bothered, Mr. Lodge least of all, but then again he is a Jughead/Veronica shipper
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F40.media.tumblr.com%2Fdfa3f7a29984d64c782baf54fb52a4c3%2Ftumblr_n8vazqcEMS1trm3ido4_1280.jpg&hash=6750c27200a5f2f5d9c1d539e74c0eaeff24ca6c)
;D Yeah, he'd much rather have Jughead as a son-in-law.
Quote from: daren on May 03, 2016, 03:44:48 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/rudejughead.440/preview/)
Forget what I said in the other threads about Jughead always being sweet and nice.
He is not nice to Veronica because he thinks of her as a worthy adversary. :D
Quote from: Original Sin on May 03, 2016, 08:56:21 AM
Quote from: daren on May 03, 2016, 03:44:48 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/rudejughead.440/preview/)
Forget what I said in the other threads about Jughead always being sweet and nice.
He is not nice to Veronica because he thinks of her as a worthy adversary. :D
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_1280-1.png&hash=af64eedf7ee86a5c0e665f4cd57947eb824ce62b) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/IMG_1280-1.png.html)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_1325-1.png&hash=7dc743ca088f8a345e67b3f2c8ad8956e09897eb) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/IMG_1325-1.png.html)
Since they were kids ::)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching.442/preview/)
I found another good story with these two but I'm having trouble finding what I did with the rest of it. :P
Quote from: daren on May 05, 2016, 02:27:13 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching.442/preview/)
I found another good story with these two but I'm having trouble finding what I did with the rest of it. :P
Is that the one where Jughead becomes a hand model? Come to think of it, there may be more than one of those stories.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 05, 2016, 03:51:12 AM
Quote from: daren on May 05, 2016, 02:27:13 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching.442/preview/)
I found another good story with these two but I'm having trouble finding what I did with the rest of it. :P
Is that the one where Jughead becomes a hand model? Come to think of it, there may be more than one of those stories.
Ah, yes, Jughead does have dainty wrists.
The idea of a girl pulling a boy out of a bush for a date is hilarious to me and even more so when it's Jug and Ron.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F67.media.tumblr.com%2F7ab85c8a3d958fe2772b65f227598145%2Ftumblr_mtqxw0Rkrm1r1slj9o1_1280.png&hash=3bfc0549064af0b9c76137e9874ef5d8d3391b8e)
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 05, 2016, 03:51:12 AM
Quote from: daren on May 05, 2016, 02:27:13 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching.442/preview/)
I found another good story with these two but I'm having trouble finding what I did with the rest of it. :P
Is that the one where Jughead becomes a hand model? Come to think of it, there may be more than one of those stories.
A hand model? that sounds funny. I haven't read that story. Hope you can find the rest and post it, Daren.
Okay, so Jughead and Veronica were spotted by this guy who says he's just found the perfect model, so of course Veronica assumes:
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching2.443/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching3.444/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching4.445/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching5.446/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching6.447/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching7.448/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching8.449/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching9.450/preview/)
Oops. ;D
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching10.451/preview/)
I don't think they meant this ending to be a slur at women, I think it's a reference to Jughead's woman hating ways even though he'd sort of grown beyond that at this point. Anyway I like this story because it's one of the rare ones where Veronica "wins" over Jughead. Kind of.
Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 02:44:43 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/wristwatching10.451/preview/)
I don't think they meant this ending to be a slur at women, I think it's a reference to Jughead's woman hating ways even though he'd sort of grown beyond that at this point. Anyway I like this story because it's one of the rare ones where Veronica "wins" over Jughead. Kind of.
Jughead may be relationship-avoidant, but he's still firmly psychologically male in gender. At first his ego is stroked by the idea that he's become the male equivalent of what Veronica would like to be - a sought-after male model (Veronica would obviously like to be a sought-after female model), and the envy of his friends. When he discovers that the only reason he was sought-after was because his skinny wrists are not only acceptable, but preferrable, to model women's watches, his male ego is insulted and he's embarassed. He may not be attracted to women, but he doesn't want to be mistaken for one either.
Well, he does have that woman hater past (though it IS the past).
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F4580bc4.jpg&hash=0d685bb84b9ae7b7038925417959aa7023a85f0e)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F3a570eb.jpg&hash=fd6569106a534fb61f4dfb1ec0a1b312c9ce45e8)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F439ad41.jpg&hash=a7429e32e69f78ee81a421791e38cbece50804a8)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F43cd49d.jpg&hash=c05ab54441c71024c9c4ec837c4bf5b79c8efbea)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F464b06a.jpg&hash=a852b7eca2375311eae8486dac56425028890db0)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F461c389.jpg&hash=f0b15fa00a469084e7f5b10840385db69b2ccbe9)
This story is too funny! ;D :2funny:
So this is where that panel with Jughead and Reggie that I've seen nine million times comes from.
These are from Runaway Ronnie, when Veronica is trying to live on her own working at a full time job after school and burning herself out.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jerkjug.485/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jerkjug2.486/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jerkjug3.487/preview/)
You'd think he'd attack Reggie who had just insulted him instead of an injured girl but noooo.
Still...
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/hecantmeanarchiecanhe.484/preview/)
Changeable little bugger isn't he?
(I don't think he's talking about Archie. I can believe he'd have a secret crush on Archie but I don't think he'd be delusional.)
Quote from: daren on May 14, 2016, 10:26:33 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jerkjug3.487/preview/)
You'd think he'd attack Reggie who had just insulted him instead of an injured girl but noooo.
That's why we have a thread discussing a Jughead/Veronica feud, and not one discussing a Jughead/Reggie "feud". Although you certainly can't deny that one exists, just like you can't deny an Archie/Reggie "feud" or a Moose/Reggie "feud". People don't usually characterize them that way, as feuds, but it's certainly some kind of antagonistic relationship. But that's Reggie's thing. He's the burr in everyone's saddle. We
expect him to be contentious.
Quote from: daren on May 14, 2016, 10:26:33 PMStill...
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/hecantmeanarchiecanhe.484/preview/)
Changeable little bugger isn't he?
(I don't think he's talking about Archie. I can believe he'd have a secret crush on Archie but I don't think he'd be delusional.)
While Jughead can often be caught admitting to Veronica's beauty (in passing, as he details her many other faults), would he characterize her as having "brains"? I don't think so. What about Archie, then? "Brains"? Jughead's his best pal, but I don't
think so. So who's got the brains here? Jughead, that's who. It's a pretty weak attempt at humor, but he's referring to himself on both counts.
Quote from: Original Sin on April 27, 2016, 02:53:17 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F3970b56.jpg&hash=fe32a9da26e881b012c3f83498396814804f247e)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fe8df40a.jpg&hash=9e0beb9a002c37118d9a64da9b253c4eae8ec5e9)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F5d7e6a1.jpg&hash=7b21694d1e6755f5cf36615bf477097168673baf)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F8480bfa.jpg&hash=ec1805f9ba48f641cda47f436a9027e405d3b81b)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2Fad145ef.jpg&hash=c4f9d7277a14a0d7c3adfe326449dbc0bacd729d)
All you really need is love. ;)
Since when does Midge play the role of Trula? :2funny:
I have two even better questions. One, I've heard of being color blind, but why does Betty call Midge "Nancy"? And two, does anyone really put ketchup on carrot sticks?
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 15, 2016, 11:14:49 AM
I have two even better questions. One, I've heard of being color blind, but why does Betty call Midge "Nancy"? And two, does anyone really put ketchup on carrot sticks?
Geez, I missed that about Nancy! :o How'd I miss that?! ???
Oops
Jughead and Veronica: The Married Life
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_n1xurzheO11qm3fdk.jpg&hash=169af2f8082a7a6bb6c8093c614f73ea513a0002) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/JV/tumblr_inline_n1xurzheO11qm3fdk.jpg.html)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_n1xusjdk2g1qm3fdk.jpg&hash=d3309f8496cb094dccdd67734ef5817aa9aaec5f) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/JV/tumblr_inline_n1xusjdk2g1qm3fdk.jpg.html)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_n1xut3rfAQ1qm3fdk.jpg&hash=d84242d81fcedfa87b9b7d7861c32974978662e7) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/JV/tumblr_inline_n1xut3rfAQ1qm3fdk.jpg.html)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_n1xutjE32M1qm3fdk.jpg&hash=078c6c9e28da0167b7fde7f636a31ea80e20dfde) (http://s393.photobucket.com/user/newest_gloss/media/JV/tumblr_inline_n1xutjE32M1qm3fdk.jpg.html)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fourfoodgroups.504/)
I'm with Jughead.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/darts.502/)
This is from a pretty good Veronica vs. Jughead story (well in a way) at this link: http://slaymonstrobot.blogspot.com/2015/11/manic-monday-bonus-jugheads-secret.html (http://slaymonstrobot.blogspot.com/2015/11/manic-monday-bonus-jugheads-secret.html)
Quote from: daren on May 17, 2016, 04:00:59 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/darts.502/)
This is from a pretty good Veronica vs. Jughead story (well in a way) at this link: http://slaymonstrobot.blogspot.com/2015/11/manic-monday-bonus-jugheads-secret.html (http://slaymonstrobot.blogspot.com/2015/11/manic-monday-bonus-jugheads-secret.html)
That totally fits the theme of this thread!
I always liked these panels because it's rare when Jughead says Veronica is better than Betty at anything.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ftumblr_n7r18cBF2m1trm3ido1_500.png&hash=e69af817554638cc1bb3b62a7ff1a8793b3f3134)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n6ddmfN4nT1trm3ido1_500.png&hash=cc6f88e5b53d086cac5f6dc06c341476ab060ecc)
Quote from: daren on May 17, 2016, 04:00:59 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/darts.502/)
This is from a pretty good Veronica vs. Jughead story (well in a way) at this link: http://slaymonstrobot.blogspot.com/2015/11/manic-monday-bonus-jugheads-secret.html (http://slaymonstrobot.blogspot.com/2015/11/manic-monday-bonus-jugheads-secret.html)
Don't forget the moral of the story:
QuoteGive it up, Mark Waid--you'll never top that!!
Quote from: Thrillho on May 18, 2016, 07:21:35 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n6ddmfN4nT1trm3ido1_500.png&hash=cc6f88e5b53d086cac5f6dc06c341476ab060ecc)
I never would have thought Jughead would say THAT, in the second panel. He's always
liked Betty better than Veronica so you know if he's saying that, he really means it.
Quote from: daren on May 19, 2016, 03:55:11 PM
I never would have thought Jughead would say THAT, in the second panel. He's always
liked Betty better than Veronica so you know if he's saying that, he really means it.
Well maybe not that unusual
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Fjugheaddreamboy-1.jpeg&hash=64d8e0b540036c5b298907d1480f139de801c370)
I will post the rest in the Reggie thread
So we've been seeing a few pictures of these two Riverdale actors together at publicity events lately...
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/tvshowjandv.518/preview/)
Do Jughead-Veronica feud fans want to see them feud on the show too, or is this whole trip so different that it doesn't matter to you? Because I know some of my usual inclinations are dead thanks to plot/casting decisions.
Quote from: daren on May 20, 2016, 03:56:24 AM
So we've been seeing a few pictures of these two Riverdale actors together at public events lately...
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/tvshowjandv.518/preview/)
Do Jughead-Veronica feud fans want to see them feud on the show too, or is this whole trip so different that it doesn't matter to you? Because I know some of my usual inclinations are dead thanks to plot/casting decisions.
In the context of what I already know about
Riverdale, it would seem like the most likely scenario would involve Veronica having sex with Jughead, but trying to keep the affair secret from everyone (or maybe it's Jughead who insists on keeping it secret). Just remember that in
Riverdale, every day is "opposite day".
Quote from: daren on May 20, 2016, 03:56:24 AM
Do Jughead-Veronica feud fans want to see them feud on the show too, or is this whole trip so different that it doesn't matter to you? Because I know some of my usual inclinations are dead thanks to plot/casting decisions.
Since Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa is writing it I think there will be antagonism. I mean there has to be, Mark Waid and Chip Zdarsky are taking advantage of it. It's in Afterlife with Archie too which RAS writes so I would actually be quite surprised if they got along fine in
Riverdale, but I can't say I'm not trepidatious about how they might present it. I would like it to be more like their relationship in classic Archie where they still consider themselves friends even though they bicker, instead of the outright dislike they display in new Archie and Afterlife with Archie.
As far as romance goes, I'd have to see the show in order to determine whether I would be into it or not, but so far my inclination is no the more I hear about
Riverdale. [/size]Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 20, 2016, 05:27:20 AMIn the context of what I already know about Riverdale, it would seem like the most likely scenario would involve Veronica having sex with Jughead, but trying to keep the affair secret from everyone (or maybe it's Jughead who insists on keeping it secret). Just remember that in Riverdale, every day is "opposite day".
I'm not exactly on top of all the
Riverdale news but have they released anything in regards to Jughead's sexuality? Chip Zdarsky has him as asexual, and others see him as gay, will he be straight in
Riverdale? Since this show is the brainchild of RAS and Greg Berlanti, I can see some
Glee or
Dawson's Creek type thing where the protagonist's (Archie) best friend (Jughead) dates one of his girlfriends (Betty, Veronica) a la Puck and Quinn, and Pacey and Joey. Maybe you're not too far off, DeCarlo Rules.
By the way, is Jughead still supposed to be hard of hearing?
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 20, 2016, 05:27:20 AM
Quote from: daren on May 20, 2016, 03:56:24 AM
So we've been seeing a few pictures of these two Riverdale actors together at public events lately...
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/tvshowjandv.518/preview/)
Do Jughead-Veronica feud fans want to see them feud on the show too, or is this whole trip so different that it doesn't matter to you? Because I know some of my usual inclinations are dead thanks to plot/casting decisions.
In the context of what I already know about Riverdale, it would seem like the most likely scenario would involve Veronica having sex with Jughead, but trying to keep the affair secret from everyone (or maybe it's Jughead who insists on keeping it secret). Just remember that in Riverdale, every day is "opposite day".
We can only hope! LOL
Quote from: spazaru on May 20, 2016, 03:40:59 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 20, 2016, 05:27:20 AM
Quote from: daren on May 20, 2016, 03:56:24 AM
So we've been seeing a few pictures of these two Riverdale actors together at public events lately...
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/tvshowjandv.518/preview/)
Do Jughead-Veronica feud fans want to see them feud on the show too, or is this whole trip so different that it doesn't matter to you? Because I know some of my usual inclinations are dead thanks to plot/casting decisions.
In the context of what I already know about Riverdale, it would seem like the most likely scenario would involve Veronica having sex with Jughead, but trying to keep the affair secret from everyone (or maybe it's Jughead who insists on keeping it secret). Just remember that in Riverdale, every day is "opposite day".
We can only hope! LOL
Relevant out of context panels
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F2b727fb9eb4e6406c8c12f12b34f1fbb%2Ftumblr_n1s4a3nxFw1trm3ido1_540.png&hash=ec7d4c19982c1e2f8bfaf803dcc948ee0a4d8376)
Quote from: Thrillho on May 20, 2016, 03:17:49 PM
Quote from: daren on May 20, 2016, 03:56:24 AM
Do Jughead-Veronica feud fans want to see them feud on the show too, or is this whole trip so different that it doesn't matter to you? Because I know some of my usual inclinations are dead thanks to plot/casting decisions.
Since Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa is writing it I think there will be antagonism. I mean there has to be, Mark Waid and Chip Zdarsky are taking advantage of it. It's in Afterlife with Archie too which RAS writes so I would actually be quite surprised if they got along fine in Riverdale, but I can't say I'm not trepidatious about how they might present it. I would like it to be more like their relationship in classic Archie where they still consider themselves friends even though they bicker, instead of the outright dislike they display in new Archie and Afterlife with Archie.
As far as romance goes, I'd have to see the show in order to determine whether I would be into it or not, but so far my inclination is no the more I hear about Riverdale.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 20, 2016, 05:27:20 AMIn the context of what I already know about Riverdale, it would seem like the most likely scenario would involve Veronica having sex with Jughead, but trying to keep the affair secret from everyone (or maybe it's Jughead who insists on keeping it secret). Just remember that in Riverdale, every day is "opposite day".
I'm not exactly on top of all the Riverdale news but have they released anything in regards to Jughead's sexuality? Chip Zdarsky has him as asexual, and others see him as gay, will he be straight in Riverdale? Since this show is the brainchild of RAS and Greg Berlanti, I can see some Glee or Dawson's Creek type thing where the protagonist's (Archie) best friend (Jughead) dates one of his girlfriends (Betty, Veronica) a la Puck and Quinn, and Pacey and Joey. Maybe you're not too far off, DeCarlo Rules.
By the way, is Jughead still supposed to be hard of hearing?
I doubt it, they're not putting it in the publicity now and they weren't able to find a deaf actor like they wanted.
They're being vague about what his sexuality will be, the closest they've come to an answer is what Cole Sprouse says here:
http://riverdaily.tumblr.com/post/144621196202/cole-sprouse-answering-whether-or-not-jughead-will (http://riverdaily.tumblr.com/post/144621196202/cole-sprouse-answering-whether-or-not-jughead-will)
They'll probably try to please everyone by having him seem to be a biromantic asexual who tries dating everyone and finally decides in the last episode that he's aromantic.
Quote from: Thrillho on May 20, 2016, 10:24:37 PM
Relevant out of context panels
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F2b727fb9eb4e6406c8c12f12b34f1fbb%2Ftumblr_n1s4a3nxFw1trm3ido1_540.png&hash=ec7d4c19982c1e2f8bfaf803dcc948ee0a4d8376)
To think of all the people who say Veronica never helps the needy!
Quote from: daren on May 20, 2016, 11:29:02 PM
I doubt it, they're not putting it in the publicity now and they weren't able to find a deaf actor like they wanted.
They're being vague about what his sexuality will be, the closest they've come to an answer is what Cole Sprouse says here:
http://riverdaily.tumblr.com/post/144621196202/cole-sprouse-answering-whether-or-not-jughead-will (http://riverdaily.tumblr.com/post/144621196202/cole-sprouse-answering-whether-or-not-jughead-will)
They'll probably try to please everyone by having him seem to be a biromantic asexual who tries dating everyone and finally decides in the last episode that he's aromantic.
Thanks for the info, daren! You're awesome. I'm still on the fence about aromantic asexual Jughead.
Quote from: daren on May 20, 2016, 11:29:02 PM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 20, 2016, 10:24:37 PM
Relevant out of context panels
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F2b727fb9eb4e6406c8c12f12b34f1fbb%2Ftumblr_n1s4a3nxFw1trm3ido1_540.png&hash=ec7d4c19982c1e2f8bfaf803dcc948ee0a4d8376)
To think of all the people who say Veronica never helps the needy!
:2funny: *screaming* If I had a drink, I'd have spit out.
Quote from: Thrillho on May 21, 2016, 01:44:41 AM
Thanks for the info, daren! You're awesome. I'm still on the fence about aromantic asexual Jughead.
I like to think of him as aromantic but I know he isn't completely. There's been at least ten stories or so where he's heteroromantic, not much but even a small amount makes a difference. If Veronica had ten lesbian romances in her history we wouldn't call her hetero, and if Kevin fell in love with a girl we'd probably call him bi.
Actually when you think about it Veronica would be the best mate for asexual Jughead, there's a lot of stories where she's like this:
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/brushingoffarchie.623/preview/)
She's still horny sometimes but she's less interested in physical affection than any of them, besides Jughead...well and maybe Dilton. Sorry Veronica, you might lose Jughead to the superbrain! :)
Dilton has always been very interested — just totally clueless about what to do about it, and most girls don't get beyond his intimidating intellect or small stature to help him out ...
Quote from: invisifan on May 21, 2016, 09:30:09 PM
Dilton has always been very interested — just totally clueless about what to do about it, and most girls don't get beyond his intimidating intellect or small stature to help him out ...
Except for those Joke Book 1 page and 1/2 page gags where the joke is always that there's some girl trying to cozy up to him and he's totally oblivious that she's inviting his affection. For some reason that one gag idea has been subjected to dozens of variations.
I liked it when he dated Cheryl for a bit.
Quote from: daren on May 21, 2016, 07:40:36 PM
I like to think of him as aromantic but I know he isn't completely. There's been at least ten stories or so where he's heteroromantic, not much but even a small amount makes a difference.
Only TEN? There's
way more than that. A drop in the bucket compared to the preponderance of Jughead stories that show the complete opposite, but still. There's almost 10 stories with him showing serious romantic attraction to January McAndrews
alone. Plus all the other girls people would like to forget about, like Debbie & Dilly Dalton, Joani Jumpp, Anita Chavita, Sandy Sanchez and Sadie Cameron. Those last two are one-time appearances, but there must be dozens of random short stories with girls that Jughead was attracted to for that one story only.
Quote from: daren on May 21, 2016, 07:40:36 PM
I like to think of him as aromantic but I know he isn't completely. There's been at least ten stories or so where he's heteroromantic, not much but even a small amount makes a difference. If Veronica had ten lesbian romances in her history we wouldn't call her hetero, and if Kevin fell in love with a girl we'd probably call him bi.
Good points. Jughead has had plenty of heterosexual romances, and I agree with DeCarlo Rules here, it's way more than ten. So I guess it is kind of odd many are firm about him being aromantic.
My ambivalence comes from the fact that it has been explicitly stated in the new Jughead that he is asexual, and that has less to do with me being against aromantic Jughead and more about me being a bit protective of classic Archie. I am 100% supportive of the reboots but one of things I loved about classic Archie was that you could find stories that fit in with stuff you liked, for example stories that supported the idea of Betty/Reggie or Jughead/Veronica (the most popular pairings here), or you could find stories that supported the opposite, if that was your thing.
I guess a new writer can come in and have Jughead have his sexual awakening but I think that would let a lot of people down. Having Jughead definitively say he's asexual (and I think Zdarsky means aromantic too) shuts the door on a lot of storylines.
Zdarsky says in a tweet that he thinks Jughead is "asexual with aromantic leanings" and that if Jughead was older he'd probably make him asexual but not aromantic. Yeah a lot of people wouldnt like it if Jughead started dating in the reboot, unfortunately that book probably won't last long enough for his sexuality to matter. Someone posted the sales figures recently and I'd guess it's only got a few years left. I'd like to think the tv show will help but I doubt it will much. :(
Even as bad as things are for classic Archie right now, that's probably the version with the best chance of surviving, maybe with some changes and hopefully another 32 pager someday. I don't know if ACP will ever call classic Jughead asexual but I guess it would be a good idea, it would give some representation without changing anything about him since "asexual" as I guess you know covers everything from aromantics to demisexuals and occasional primary sexual attraction (classic Archie wouldnt be obvious about that now, but in the future they might pull anything).
But yeah, ACP would never make classic Jughead strictly aromantic for the reason you said, it cuts off potential stories. I don't think even most advocates of asexual Jughead want that with all the Jughead ship art I've seen them post lately. I'd be happy with all-aro classic Jughead but I'm okay with almost all aro since most people want him to have some romantic potential.
-//------
Okay, I went looking for Jughead/Veronica fan art, there isn't any, but I found this:
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/montana71.625/preview/)
Bob Montana didn't intend for Jughead to be completely aromantic. That clinches it, creator intent counts for a lot with me, not everything but a lot.
I wonder why there's no Jughead Veronica fan art, it seems like a popular ship? ???
Quote from: Thrillho on May 22, 2016, 02:23:20 PM
My ambivalence comes from the fact that it has been explicitly stated in the new Jughead that he is asexual, and that has less to do with me being against aromantic Jughead and more about me being a bit protective of classic Archie. I am 100% supportive of the reboots but one of things I loved about classic Archie was that you could find stories that fit in with stuff you liked, for example stories that supported the idea of Betty/Reggie or Jughead/Veronica (the most popular pairings here), or you could find stories that supported the opposite, if that was your thing.
You need to put the bulk of classic Archie stories into historical perspective to understand the lack of continuity. Prior to the early 1970s, when ARCHIE ANNUAL became ARCHIE COMICS DIGEST, only a tiny fraction of ACP's annual output of stories contained any reprints. In that time period, the audience was assumed to be kids, and was assumed to completely turn over every five years or so. Writers then were approaching every single story as a complete stand-alone episode, with no connection to any other story. Only the most basic knowledge of information about the characters was assumed on the part of the reader.
Thus, you got stories like the one where Archie and Jughead are looking, acting, and talking like beatniks, for no reason ever explained in the story. In the next story, they're not beatniks, they're acting like their normal selves, but three years later you get a story where Betty is acting like a beatnik (again, no explanation offered) and Archie and Jughead are their normal selves (with no reference to the earlier story about them ever having been beatniks themselves). There was an assumed cartoon reality there where almost anything could happen in a single story and remain contained to that story with no ramifications extending to the stories which followed. This logic continued to apply even when there was an entire series of stories (like the ones where Archie and Jughead become superheroes Pureheart the Powerful and Captain Hero, or were secret agents for P.O.P.), yet outside of their own titles, no reader was expected to wonder why Archie didn't deal with a situation in some other story by simply turning into Pureheart and solving his problem.
Now we have an older audience of readers that wants and expects continuity from issue to issue, and between different titles that feature the same characters as well. Not only are the reboots accounting for that expectation on the part of the reader, they're also taking into account that those same readers expect a greater level of realism in handling the characters -- less "cartoon reality". All of this is largely accepted by today's comic readers as a great improvement over the "elastic"/changeable quality of the characters in earlier stories, but I'm convinced that removing that freedom from the writers also impoverishes the spectrum of the type of stories that can be told using the same basic characters. It's one of the essential built-in charms of those earlier classic Archie stories.
It's true. I wish we could have both but classic somewhat discontinuous Archie is way more important.
Quote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:57:06 AM
It's true. I wish we could have both but classic somewhat discontinuous Archie is way more important.
I forgot to add that after the 1987 volume 2 'soft reboot' (so soft it went undetected by most readers apart from the numbering), continuity was not only allowed but seemingly encouraged. Yet even so, ACP didn't totally abandon the earlier flexibility of cartoon reality, so in a way, you got the benefits of both, by not applying the idea of 'continuity' TOO strictly -- but this period is where you first began to see footnotes acknowledging the events of previous stories.
Note, for example, that this is the period where stories too at-variance with 'standard Archie' became specifically delineated as "fictional" -- a play put on by The Mighty Archie Art Players, where previously, the exact same type of story (taking place in another time period, or parodying a movie or book) would have just appeared with no attempt to justify their anomalous nature.
Quote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:11:14 AM
I wonder why there's no Jughead Veronica fan art, it seems like a popular ship? ???
I did some Jug/Ronnie fan art stuff.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpre13.deviantart.net%2F8e18%2Fth%2Fpre%2Fi%2F2013%2F346%2F2%2Fd%2Fproposal_jughead_style___jug_veronica_fanart_by_sintah-d6xn7vj.jpg&hash=0ddb4590d09b889a9c2c6780746cc9ed28309d87)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg01.deviantart.net%2Fe66b%2Fi%2F2014%2F104%2Fb%2Fc%2Fjughead_and_veronica_on_a_scooter_by_sintah-d7eivgk.jpg&hash=b4d479c803a2e237e54bcb990b680c77a1c10880)
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 23, 2016, 05:58:56 AM
Quote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:57:06 AM
It's true. I wish we could have both but classic somewhat discontinuous Archie is way more important.
I forgot to add that after the 1987 volume 2 'soft reboot' (so soft it went undetected by most readers apart from the numbering), continuity was not only allowed but seemingly encouraged. Yet even so, ACP didn't totally abandon the earlier flexibility of cartoon reality, so in a way, you got the benefits of both, by not applying the idea of 'continuity' TOO strictly -- but this period is where you first began to see footnotes acknowledging the events of previous stories.
Note, for example, that this is the period where stories too at-variance with 'standard Archie' became specifically delineated as "fictional" -- a play put on by The Mighty Archie Art Players, where previously, the exact same type of story (taking place in another time period, or parodying a movie or book) would have just appeared with no attempt to justify their anomalous nature.
The whole cartoon reality thing (as you define it — I'd really look for a different term though, that one's taken) applied to comics in general until the Silver Age when Marvel especially, and DC more hesitantly, began to do footnotes & backrefs to establish continuity ... Archie was just a little late to the game ... and DC frequently branded soon of their better stories which would have substantially changed the status quo as "imaginary" (where later they'd get an "Elseworlds" brand) ...
Hot Ronnie = hot lunch 8)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jdd62.627/preview/)
More for the Jughead/Veronica feud ship thread. ;)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jughead27-025.628/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jughead27-026.629/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jughead27-027.630/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jughead27-028.631/preview/)
So who's Betty's lunch date? :(
Quote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:11:14 AM
...I wonder why there's no Jughead Veronica fan art, it seems like a popular ship? ???
From what I've seen online, the Jughead/Betty ship is more popular?
Quote from: Chic Cooper on May 23, 2016, 12:52:09 PM
More for the Jughead/Veronica feud ship thread. ;)
Seems like you know the purpose of this thread. ;D Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on May 23, 2016, 12:58:20 PMQuote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:11:14 AM
...I wonder why there's no Jughead Veronica fan art, it seems like a popular ship? ???
From what I've seen online, the Jughead/Betty ship is more popular?
Original Sin posted some fun ones, we had a thread on the old site. There is this (http://www.archiefans.com/this) on tumblr for the new Archie series. This is a thumbnail I saved from one that the artist took down:(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJughead_and_Veronica_by_BehindtheVeil_1.jpg&hash=1ff5be0b2ff6699b66fbce2b66a855f7508ca699)The artist is BehindtheVeil at deviantart but I don't know if he or she has an account there anymore.My friend made me a cute one but I'll have to track down the physical copy since I think I only posted it on the old site.Here's two (http://moniquej.deviantart.com/art/Jughead-Veronica-School-scene-58798184) more (http://moniquej.deviantart.com/art/Jughead-and-Veronica-57382420). If I can muster enough courage I might post one I posted on the old site.I think outside of this site Betty/Jughead is more popular than Jughead/Veronica and Betty/Reggie but we're a more passionate bunch here. :D
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 07:52:37 PM
...I think outside of this site Betty/Jughead is more popular than Jughead/Veronica and Betty/Reggie but we're a more passionate bunch here. :D
haha, that is so true! ;D
Quote from: invisifan on May 23, 2016, 10:05:33 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 23, 2016, 05:58:56 AM
Quote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:57:06 AM
It's true. I wish we could have both but classic somewhat discontinuous Archie is way more important.
I forgot to add that after the 1987 volume 2 'soft reboot' (so soft it went undetected by most readers apart from the numbering), continuity was not only allowed but seemingly encouraged. Yet even so, ACP didn't totally abandon the earlier flexibility of cartoon reality, so in a way, you got the benefits of both, by not applying the idea of 'continuity' TOO strictly -- but this period is where you first began to see footnotes acknowledging the events of previous stories.
Note, for example, that this is the period where stories too at-variance with 'standard Archie' became specifically delineated as "fictional" -- a play put on by The Mighty Archie Art Players, where previously, the exact same type of story (taking place in another time period, or parodying a movie or book) would have just appeared with no attempt to justify their anomalous nature.
The whole cartoon reality thing (as you define it — I'd really look for a different term though, that one's taken) applied to comics in general until the Silver Age when Marvel especially, and DC more hesitantly, began to do footnotes & backrefs to establish continuity ... Archie was just a little late to the game ... and DC frequently branded soon of their better stories which would have substantially changed the status quo as "imaginary" (where later they'd get an "Elseworlds" brand) ...
No. Archie's "reality" was
always more loosely defined than DC's (and pre-Marvel Timely/Atlas). Not so much because of continuity, but because Archie was always more of a cartoon character, as opposed to DC and Marvel's adventure characters. Would Batman and Robin, for example, in 1958 appear in a story where (for no reason ever even attempted to explain) they are suddenly dressing and acting like beatniks? No, that gets accepted by readers of Archie comics at that time, because it's a cartoon. There's no need to explain why. Just like for no reason the Archie gang could appear in a story where (again, no attempt at ANY explanation) they are living in ancient Roman times. THAT is cartoon reality. Y'know, like Bugs Bunny.
Quote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:11:14 AM
Zdarsky says in a tweet that he thinks Jughead is "asexual with aromantic leanings" and that if Jughead was older he'd probably make him asexual but not aromantic. Yeah a lot of people wouldnt like it if Jughead started dating in the reboot, unfortunately that book probably won't last long enough for his sexuality to matter. Someone posted the sales figures recently and I'd guess it's only got a few years left. I'd like to think the tv show will help but I doubt it will much. :(
Even as bad as things are for classic Archie right now, that's probably the version with the best chance of surviving, maybe with some changes and hopefully another 32 pager someday. I don't know if ACP will ever call classic Jughead asexual but I guess it would be a good idea, it would give some representation without changing anything about him since "asexual" as I guess you know covers everything from aromantics to demisexuals and occasional primary sexual attraction (classic Archie wouldnt be obvious about that now, but in the future they might pull anything).
But yeah, ACP would never make classic Jughead strictly aromantic for the reason you said, it cuts off potential stories. I don't think even most advocates of asexual Jughead want that with all the Jughead ship art I've seen them post lately. I'd be happy with all-aro classic Jughead but I'm okay with almost all aro since most people want him to have some romantic potential.
-//------
Okay, I went looking for Jughead/Veronica fan art, there isn't any, but I found this:
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/montana71.625/preview/)
Bob Montana didn't intend for Jughead to be completely aromantic. That clinches it, creator intent counts for a lot with me, not everything but a lot.
Dan Parent has a theory
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ftumblr_n12csdswz41trm3ido1_1280.jpg&hash=04d07a23b5a623b545569ecac045cb812b318098)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ftumblr_n12csdswz41trm3ido2_1280.jpg&hash=d75fee4abab435353d07c0562dcd42f422886525)
I can definitely get behind this
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 08:46:15 PM
Quote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:11:14 AM
Zdarsky says in a tweet that he thinks Jughead is "asexual with aromantic leanings" and that if Jughead was older he'd probably make him asexual but not aromantic. Yeah a lot of people wouldnt like it if Jughead started dating in the reboot, unfortunately that book probably won't last long enough for his sexuality to matter. Someone posted the sales figures recently and I'd guess it's only got a few years left. I'd like to think the tv show will help but I doubt it will much. :(
Even as bad as things are for classic Archie right now, that's probably the version with the best chance of surviving, maybe with some changes and hopefully another 32 pager someday. I don't know if ACP will ever call classic Jughead asexual but I guess it would be a good idea, it would give some representation without changing anything about him since "asexual" as I guess you know covers everything from aromantics to demisexuals and occasional primary sexual attraction (classic Archie wouldnt be obvious about that now, but in the future they might pull anything).
But yeah, ACP would never make classic Jughead strictly aromantic for the reason you said, it cuts off potential stories. I don't think even most advocates of asexual Jughead want that with all the Jughead ship art I've seen them post lately. I'd be happy with all-aro classic Jughead but I'm okay with almost all aro since most people want him to have some romantic potential.
-//------
Okay, I went looking for Jughead/Veronica fan art, there isn't any, but I found this:
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/montana71.625/preview/)
Bob Montana didn't intend for Jughead to be completely aromantic. That clinches it, creator intent counts for a lot with me, not everything but a lot.
Dan Parent has a theory
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ftumblr_n12csdswz41trm3ido1_1280.jpg&hash=04d07a23b5a623b545569ecac045cb812b318098)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ftumblr_n12csdswz41trm3ido2_1280.jpg&hash=d75fee4abab435353d07c0562dcd42f422886525)
I can definitely get behind this
NOOOO!!! I WANT TO READ THE REST OF IT!!!
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 23, 2016, 09:32:37 PM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 08:46:15 PM
Dan Parent has a theory
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ftumblr_n12csdswz41trm3ido1_1280.jpg&hash=04d07a23b5a623b545569ecac045cb812b318098)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ftumblr_n12csdswz41trm3ido2_1280.jpg&hash=d75fee4abab435353d07c0562dcd42f422886525)
I can definitely get behind this
NOOOO!!! I WANT TO READ THE REST OF IT!!!
It was in a Veronica floppy but I sold off my collection, and I don't remember the specific issue but it's reprinted in World of Archie Digest #12, Veronica's Wonderful Life.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6413.png&hash=3f1651195917dc1fcac7282d3a7a8e8c8ae183d1)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6414.png&hash=9709bd4f1e43a9244e61e92ff5ceb022f749c31b)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6416.png&hash=fdaba201847f4120e83059eff3b0c528687e1f51)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6417.png&hash=0e5e33fe340df05d87eadd7bc7da510262c0598b)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6418.png&hash=81628fc1d036b80a4878d464e796f1555e54e834)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6419.png&hash=0f2e4d0f09838ec0a7239302db707ff50135b9e9)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6420.png&hash=64c8e136767a747dd5f5e32ddf4537c1e8269a29)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6421.png&hash=aa50d2811712825b219b676d5931b91ad84e5717)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6422.png&hash=eccc1ad4f83e001bde68e9735b50d7b2efce1390)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6423.png&hash=db66818c8615203865b3345e190aa6d193922bd5)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6424.png&hash=72bf6ebca230c6d63320566fc85dd34daa0e2db5)
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 10:15:33 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 23, 2016, 09:32:37 PM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 08:46:15 PM
Dan Parent has a theory
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ftumblr_n12csdswz41trm3ido1_1280.jpg&hash=04d07a23b5a623b545569ecac045cb812b318098)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ftumblr_n12csdswz41trm3ido2_1280.jpg&hash=d75fee4abab435353d07c0562dcd42f422886525)
I can definitely get behind this
NOOOO!!! I WANT TO READ THE REST OF IT!!!
It was in a Veronica floppy but I sold off my collection, and I don't remember the specific issue but it's reprinted in World of Archie Digest #12, Veronica's Wonderful Life.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6413.png&hash=3f1651195917dc1fcac7282d3a7a8e8c8ae183d1)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6414.png&hash=9709bd4f1e43a9244e61e92ff5ceb022f749c31b)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6416.png&hash=fdaba201847f4120e83059eff3b0c528687e1f51)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6417.png&hash=0e5e33fe340df05d87eadd7bc7da510262c0598b)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6418.png&hash=81628fc1d036b80a4878d464e796f1555e54e834)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6419.png&hash=0f2e4d0f09838ec0a7239302db707ff50135b9e9)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6420.png&hash=64c8e136767a747dd5f5e32ddf4537c1e8269a29)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6421.png&hash=aa50d2811712825b219b676d5931b91ad84e5717)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6422.png&hash=eccc1ad4f83e001bde68e9735b50d7b2efce1390)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6423.png&hash=db66818c8615203865b3345e190aa6d193922bd5)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6424.png&hash=72bf6ebca230c6d63320566fc85dd34daa0e2db5)
If Dan Parent isn't a Jughead/Veronica shipper I'll eat my own shoe.
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on May 23, 2016, 12:58:20 PM
Quote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:11:14 AM
...I wonder why there's no Jughead Veronica fan art, it seems like a popular ship? ???
From what I've seen online, the Jughead/Betty ship is more popular?
I don't think it's so much more popular that it would have that much more fan art though, I suspect other reasons too.
Quote from: Original Sin on May 23, 2016, 09:05:08 AM
Quote from: daren on May 23, 2016, 03:11:14 AM
I wonder why there's no Jughead Veronica fan art, it seems like a popular ship? ???
I did some Jug/Ronnie fan art stuff.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpre13.deviantart.net%2F8e18%2Fth%2Fpre%2Fi%2F2013%2F346%2F2%2Fd%2Fproposal_jughead_style___jug_veronica_fanart_by_sintah-d6xn7vj.jpg&hash=0ddb4590d09b889a9c2c6780746cc9ed28309d87)
;D
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 07:52:37 PM
Original Sin posted some fun ones, we had a thread on the old site. There is this (http://www.archiefans.com/this) on tumblr for the new Archie series.
The page is blank.
Quote
This is a thumbnail I saved from one that the artist took down:
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJughead_and_Veronica_by_BehindtheVeil_1.jpg&hash=1ff5be0b2ff6699b66fbce2b66a855f7508ca699)
The artist is BehindtheVeil at deviantart but I don't know if he or she has an account there anymore.
My friend made me a cute one but I'll have to track down the physical copy since I think I only posted it on the old site.
Here's two (http://moniquej.deviantart.com/art/Jughead-Veronica-School-scene-58798184) more (http://moniquej.deviantart.com/art/Jughead-and-Veronica-57382420). If I can muster enough courage I might post one I posted on the old site.
Go ahead, even though I'm not a shipper I'm surprised I'm enjoying all these. I think the tv show's fried my shipping instincts and opened me up to new realms just a crack.
Quote from: Chic Cooper on May 23, 2016, 10:57:50 AM
Hot Ronnie = hot lunch 8)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jdd62.627/preview/)
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 10:15:33 PM
It was in a Veronica floppy but I sold off my collection, and I don't remember the specific issue but it's reprinted in World of Archie Digest #12, Veronica's Wonderful Life.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6413.png&hash=3f1651195917dc1fcac7282d3a7a8e8c8ae183d1)
Thanks for posting that, Thrillho! Not the only variation on "A Wonderful Life" I've seen in a Veronica story, either, but this one's a gem. Plus it's got Sugar Plum in it, always a good thing.
Quote from: daren on May 24, 2016, 02:54:32 AM
The page is blank.
:P FAIL
This link (http://66.media.tumblr.com/82396219f2f89674462b07f0faede44b/tumblr_nwlw8mFUO91r0bv09o1_1280.jpg) should work ;D
Quote from: daren on May 24, 2016, 02:36:29 AM
If Dan Parent isn't a Jughead/Veronica shipper I'll eat my own shoe.
It's pretty obvious that he is. A lot of the stuff on the old thread was written and drawn by him.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F531131358574379a5ceefeefc49b2fb3%2Ftumblr_n14itvyNG71trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=8ebb5b5091bf033461a93464b464e4e179945819)
He made Jughead Veronica's first crush
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F65167a444244148fab626a2cf975bdf5%2Ftumblr_msil4npEIY1r1slj9o1_500.png&hash=ab39be5e7076e86a7ea615d1ceea8e4001ded025)
I mean he has them sharing their first kiss together.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F67.media.tumblr.com%2Fd0d8690147fd34726a2668df38124fc9%2Ftumblr_n37p5cYyOX1trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=9083dc5ebeb5453c1ced00684dd1b9f0ce3e8dcb)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F36f8520207d6274db9d705bda744d3de%2Ftumblr_n37p5cYyOX1trm3ido2_1280.png&hash=d2da4d076c22ec92abe7fd2aa1418191ae4c7068)
Has them going on dates
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F67.media.tumblr.com%2F2db18baf3e3d3e9c35829b92ec662451%2Ftumblr_n14jp2d6Eq1trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=e142c7de11b29e93bd36cf516713100b6f014f1c)
A lot of accidental kisses
and then there's this
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F67.media.tumblr.com%2F0eec04567c79677feb52945122a87c18%2Ftumblr_n8zc4anQIH1trm3ido1_500.png&hash=65149d29653b9256aeda742d0ff44eca90797a32)
His hand probably isn't up her skirt but it looks that way. :o
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 24, 2016, 10:51:07 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 23, 2016, 10:15:33 PM
It was in a Veronica floppy but I sold off my collection, and I don't remember the specific issue but it's reprinted in World of Archie Digest #12, Veronica's Wonderful Life.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_6413.png&hash=3f1651195917dc1fcac7282d3a7a8e8c8ae183d1)
Thanks for posting that, Thrillho! Not the only variation on "A Wonderful Life" I've seen in a Veronica story, either, but this one's a gem. Plus it's got Sugar Plum in it, always a good thing.
Yeah the script is full of high points and I like how Sugar Plum does the Betty role since Betty can't be there.
Quote from: Thrillho on May 24, 2016, 12:13:57 PM
Quote from: daren on May 24, 2016, 02:54:32 AM
The page is blank.
:P FAIL
This link (http://66.media.tumblr.com/82396219f2f89674462b07f0faede44b/tumblr_nwlw8mFUO91r0bv09o1_1280.jpg) should work ;D
Quote from: daren on May 24, 2016, 02:36:29 AM
If Dan Parent isn't a Jughead/Veronica shipper I'll eat my own shoe.
It's pretty obvious that he is. A lot of the stuff on the old thread was written and drawn by him.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F531131358574379a5ceefeefc49b2fb3%2Ftumblr_n14itvyNG71trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=8ebb5b5091bf033461a93464b464e4e179945819)
He made Jughead Veronica's first crush
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F65167a444244148fab626a2cf975bdf5%2Ftumblr_msil4npEIY1r1slj9o1_500.png&hash=ab39be5e7076e86a7ea615d1ceea8e4001ded025)
I mean he has them sharing their first kiss together.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F67.media.tumblr.com%2Fd0d8690147fd34726a2668df38124fc9%2Ftumblr_n37p5cYyOX1trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=9083dc5ebeb5453c1ced00684dd1b9f0ce3e8dcb)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F36f8520207d6274db9d705bda744d3de%2Ftumblr_n37p5cYyOX1trm3ido2_1280.png&hash=d2da4d076c22ec92abe7fd2aa1418191ae4c7068)
Has them going on dates
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F67.media.tumblr.com%2F2db18baf3e3d3e9c35829b92ec662451%2Ftumblr_n14jp2d6Eq1trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=e142c7de11b29e93bd36cf516713100b6f014f1c)
A lot of accidental kisses
and then there's this
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F67.media.tumblr.com%2F0eec04567c79677feb52945122a87c18%2Ftumblr_n8zc4anQIH1trm3ido1_500.png&hash=65149d29653b9256aeda742d0ff44eca90797a32)
His hand probably isn't up her skirt but it looks that way. :o
It's SOMEWHERE it doesn't belong. ;) I knew it! Dan Parent's not so secret ship! I bet the other writers have them too. Where does the talk show page come from? Thanks for reposting the fan art, there MIGHT be cyanide in that burger (jk) but good drawing.
Quote from: daren on May 25, 2016, 02:27:24 AM
I knew it! Dan Parent's not so secret ship! I bet the other writers have them too. Where does the talk show page come from?
I remember years ago on the old official Archie comics website, late '90s, early 2000s, it mentioned Jughead/Betty was a favorite among some Archie comics writers.
The "Dates of Your Lives" story is in Betty and Veronica Digest #200
Going back to their adversarial roots
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n6o8hiocvd1trm3ido1_540-2.jpg&hash=11788f29a33e6998cb69ceecbdfcd3de807929a9)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n6o8hiocvd1trm3ido2_540-2.jpg&hash=586cc71a73039ed703b1abf6917750ba7401a418)
Groovy threads Ronnie!
I found this link to some questions that Cole Sprouse and Camila Mendes answered about the show if anyone's interested, I was surprised at what Cole says about the show taking cues from those Jughead detective stories in the digests.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/17/riverdale-archie-like-twin-peaks-cw (http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/17/riverdale-archie-like-twin-peaks-cw)
Wasn't Jughead usually working for a hot girl in those stories?
Again with the Twin Peaks. :P
I don't want to spam the Jughead thread with Jughead/Veronica dates so I'll just spam this thread instead. I have plenty of examples. ;D
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F67.media.tumblr.com%2F222e1ed998936257b88053eb70b9e880%2Ftumblr_n14h3pvld61trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=65515268bc7c02365394fd1d77e209851a531853)
Quote from: daren on May 26, 2016, 03:50:22 AM
I found this link to some questions that Cole Sprouse and Camila Mendes answered about the show if anyone's interested, I was surprised at what Cole says about the show taking cues from those Jughead detective stories in the digests.
http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/17/riverdale-archie-like-twin-peaks-cw (http://www.ew.com/article/2016/05/17/riverdale-archie-like-twin-peaks-cw)
Hmmm....not sure how I feel about Camila Mendes saying it's hard for Veronica to be good.
Quote from: Thrillho on May 26, 2016, 09:04:02 PM
Hmmm....not sure how I feel about Camila Mendes saying it's hard for Veronica to be good.
So your take on Veronica is that it's easy for her to be good, it's just that there's no fun in it for her so why bother?
QuoteBoth actors admit to having not read the Archie Comics before being cast, but have since pored through them to be sure to get their characters right.
Good thing that Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa was careful to provide the actors only with Archie comics that he'd written himself! ;)
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 27, 2016, 02:03:30 AM
QuoteBoth actors admit to having not read the Archie Comics before being cast, but have since pored through them to be sure to get their characters right.
Good thing that Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa was careful to provide the actors only with Archie comics that he'd written himself! ;)
"To be sure to get their characters right" Ha! That's laughable ::)
"admit to having not read the Archie Comics before being cast" Okay, this answers the question I had and had asked in the other Riverdale thread. I just knew none of them had read AC before.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 27, 2016, 02:03:30 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 26, 2016, 09:04:02 PM
Hmmm....not sure how I feel about Camila Mendes saying it's hard for Veronica to be good.
So your take on Veronica is that it's easy for her to be good, it's just that there's no fun in it for her so why bother?
Neither. I wasn't sure about Camila Mendes' quote, like if Veronica has ulterior motives or something and since they're using Twin Peaks as an example, I was wondering if she was going to end up like Josie Packard.
My take with Veronica is that she's immature and spoiled so she doesn't always do the right thing but it doesn't come from a place of malice, just that she's selfishly driven and she will make amends when she knows she's done something wrong. Most of the time her selfishness isn't that harmful for people around her, just annoying. I wouldn't say it's easy or hard for her to be good because most of acknowledge she has a good heart but as I said, she also has a selfish streak.
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on May 27, 2016, 12:30:04 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 27, 2016, 02:03:30 AM
QuoteBoth actors admit to having not read the Archie Comics before being cast, but have since pored through them to be sure to get their characters right.
Good thing that Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa was careful to provide the actors only with Archie comics that he'd written himself! ;)
"To be sure to get their characters right" Ha! That's laughable ::)
"admit to having not read the Archie Comics before being cast" Okay, this answers the question I had and had asked in the other Riverdale thread. I just knew none of them had read AC before.
It wouldn't help anyway since
Riverdale is so drastically different from classic Archie.
Quote from: Thrillho on May 27, 2016, 02:11:01 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 27, 2016, 02:03:30 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 26, 2016, 09:04:02 PM
Hmmm....not sure how I feel about Camila Mendes saying it's hard for Veronica to be good.
So your take on Veronica is that it's easy for her to be good, it's just that there's no fun in it for her so why bother?
Neither. I wasn't sure about Camila Mendes' quote, like if Veronica has ulterior motives or something and since they're using Twin Peaks as an example, I was wondering if she was going to end up like Josie Packard.
My take with Veronica is that she's immature and spoiled so she doesn't always do the right thing but it doesn't come from a place of malice, just that she's selfishly driven and she will make amends when she knows she's done something wrong. Most of the time her selfishness isn't that harmful for people around her, just annoying. I wouldn't say it's easy or hard for her to be good because most of acknowledge she has a good heart but as I said, she also has a selfish streak.
Let's just say it's the sort of thing that's rarely
directly addressed...
But when it is -- Oh, brother! Look out!!
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/veronicas-fun-is-spoiled.664/)
It's not "Archie"... It's
STEALING (Archie) from Betty!
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/veronicas-good-reason.665/)
She just can't help it. It's like a medical condition -- she deserves sympathy and understanding...
She sure does seem to be
enjoying herself, though.
QuoteShe just can't help it. It's like a medical condition
Roberto is that you?
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 27, 2016, 03:16:20 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/veronicas-good-reason.665/)
Exactly the story I was thinking of when I typed my spiel.
Here's some gruesome AU Jughead/Veronica stuff. Minimized for gore, click to enlarge.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_2734.jpg&hash=b4dc91804f70f40bad83e929e48ca802177339d5)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Fafterlife_2_p12.png&hash=4ea064e30079b85a1763aea59d3cff78d5c7ffa6)
What Veronica says about Betty having Archie all to herself was the one thing in the series that made me laugh.
Sort of off topic but here's a link to the Riverdale cast's answers to who their first celebrity crush was, Ill just put it here because Camila and Cole gave the best answers and I have nothing else right now. :) http://betty-and-jughead.tumblr.com/post/145009279992/riverdale-cast-reveals-their-first-celebrity (http://betty-and-jughead.tumblr.com/post/145009279992/riverdale-cast-reveals-their-first-celebrity)
Sorry it's on the Betty and Jughead shipping tumblr, that's who posted it. ::)
Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 03:00:08 AM
What Veronica says about Betty having Archie all to herself was the one thing in the series that made me laugh.
The joke is on Veronica since she didn't need to die for Betty to have Archie all to herself in AWA. :D I love Veronica but sometimes she needs to be taken down a peg or two.
Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 03:00:08 AM
Sorry it's on the Betty and Jughead shipping tumblr, that's who posted it. ::)
No worries! I think everyone here is supportive of whatever pairing anyone wants to ship. ;)
Cole's answer was cute, but I agree with Lili Reinhart, my first celebrity crush was Leo too.
Continuing on my theme of Jughead and Veronica ending up as each other's dates...
Okay not exactly a date...
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F66a7e07223d9721cbcf57427422bcb48%2Ftumblr_n14h6vDB941trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=ff17e27e23fc24b3c878f6e361f8e94050ccc00a)
but she did call Jughead over instead of anyone else and she cooked it all herself!
Quote from: Thrillho on May 31, 2016, 12:41:06 PM
Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 03:00:08 AM
What Veronica says about Betty having Archie all to herself was the one thing in the series that made me laugh.
The joke is on Veronica since she didn't need to die for Betty to have Archie all to herself in AWA. :D I love Veronica but sometimes she needs to be taken down a peg or two.
Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 03:00:08 AM
Sorry it's on the Betty and Jughead shipping tumblr, that's who posted it. ::)
No worries! I think everyone here is supportive of whatever pairing anyone wants to ship. ;)
Cole's answer was cute, but I agree with Lili Reinhart, my first celebrity crush was Leo too.
I'm more about Rachel Bilson but Leo's probably been the first crush for more people than any other celebrity.
Quote
Continuing on my theme of Jughead and Veronica ending up as each other's dates...
Okay not exactly a date...
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F66a7e07223d9721cbcf57427422bcb48%2Ftumblr_n14h6vDB941trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=ff17e27e23fc24b3c878f6e361f8e94050ccc00a)
but she did call Jughead over instead of anyone else and she cooked it all herself!
Just take away Jughead's word balloon and you have Jughead and Veronica: The Married Life! :)
Hot Dog eating with a fork, this is the most human I ever saw him in a standard Archie universe story.
Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 09:16:18 PM
Just take away Jughead's word balloon and you have Jughead and Veronica: The Married Life! :)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Fvengeanceoftheancients.jpeg&hash=eb0bef20e0c3b852b6e4689e9c4bfe13a66bc55d)
I don't know why this ship isn't considered canon. ;)
Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 09:16:18 PM
Hot Dog eating with a fork, this is the most human I ever saw him in a standard Archie universe story.
I think Veronica just meant to invite Hot Dog and Jughead tagged along. After all, he does have impeccable table manners, better than Jughead. He's slicing his pancakes before he eats them while Jughead is just stuffing them in his mouth one at a time.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 01, 2016, 12:48:20 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Fvengeanceoftheancients.jpeg&hash=eb0bef20e0c3b852b6e4689e9c4bfe13a66bc55d)
I don't know why this ship isn't considered canon. ;)
Well, there's no "ship" going on here -- and in order to be considered legal, marriages (except for the ones required by ancient Inca rituals for human sacrifice) have to be entered into by the two people of their own free will.
The only relationship here is that they're mutual co-prisoners who can't stand each other. But it does look as though Mr. Lodge and Betty are next in line to see the Incan Justice of the Peace.
Quote from: Thrillho on May 31, 2016, 12:41:06 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F66a7e07223d9721cbcf57427422bcb48%2Ftumblr_n14h6vDB941trm3ido1_1280.png&hash=ff17e27e23fc24b3c878f6e361f8e94050ccc00a)
but she did call Jughead over instead of anyone else and she cooked it all herself!
You honestly can't say who else she called, because it doesn't show that part. Maybe Veronica just invited Hot Dog over to dispose of the uneaten food, and Jughead invited himself along. Jughead and Hot Dog were the only ones brave and/or hungry enough to show up, anyway. Even Archie won't eat Veronica's cooking if there's any way for him to get out of it... but Jughead isn't known as the human garbage disposal of Riverdale for nothing. Nobody makes a big deal about it when he goes to Ethel's house to eat her cooking, but unlike Ethel, Veronica really doesn't seem too happy to have him there. "Just shut up and eat!"
Quote from: Original Sin on May 06, 2016, 10:24:46 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F4580bc4.jpg&hash=0d685bb84b9ae7b7038925417959aa7023a85f0e)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F3a570eb.jpg&hash=fd6569106a534fb61f4dfb1ec0a1b312c9ce45e8)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F439ad41.jpg&hash=a7429e32e69f78ee81a421791e38cbece50804a8)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F43cd49d.jpg&hash=c05ab54441c71024c9c4ec837c4bf5b79c8efbea)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F464b06a.jpg&hash=a852b7eca2375311eae8486dac56425028890db0)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F461c389.jpg&hash=f0b15fa00a469084e7f5b10840385db69b2ccbe9)
This story is too funny! ;D :2funny:
My favorite all-time "Jug puts Ronica in her place" story... :2funny:
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 01, 2016, 02:05:39 AM
Well, there's no "ship" going on here -- and in order to be considered legal, marriages (except for the ones required by ancient Inca rituals for human sacrifice) have to be entered into by the two people of their own free will.
Sarcasm doesn't travel well across the internet, does it?
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 01, 2016, 02:24:20 AM
You honestly can't say who else she called, because it doesn't show that part. Maybe Veronica just invited Hot Dog over to dispose of the uneaten food, and Jughead invited himself along. Jughead and Hot Dog were the only ones brave and/or hungry enough to show up, anyway. Even Archie won't eat Veronica's cooking if there's any way for him to get out of it... but Jughead isn't known as the human garbage disposal of Riverdale for nothing. Nobody makes a big deal about it when he goes to Ethel's house to eat her cooking, but unlike Ethel, Veronica really doesn't seem too happy to have him there. "Just shut up and eat!"
Meanwhile, there is no evidence to indicate that she called anyone else. Occam's Razor, the hypothesis with the least assumptions should be selected. Jughead actually says Veronica invited him and Hot Dog. Also, Veronica's reputation as a bad cook wasn't firmly established yet, so the others would have no reason to avoid her cooking. I think it's obvious Veronica invited Jughead and Hot Dog because they can put away a lot food quickly, but this thread is 50% shipping, so of course we're just having fun with the stories.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 01, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
Meanwhile, there is no evidence to indicate that she called anyone else. Occam's Razor, the hypothesis with the least assumptions should be selected.
The evidence would be Veronica's sour mood. If she only invited Jughead and he showed up, she should be satisfied with that. The fact that she's unhappy about the situation seems to indicate she hoped someone else would show up to eat the big breakfast she made. Or if she didn't invite anyone else, she seems to feel like this solution to getting rid of her big breakfast isn't much of an improvement on shoving it all down the garbage disposal.
Quote from: SAGG on June 01, 2016, 05:23:11 PM
Quote from: Original Sin on May 06, 2016, 10:24:46 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F4580bc4.jpg&hash=0d685bb84b9ae7b7038925417959aa7023a85f0e)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F3a570eb.jpg&hash=fd6569106a534fb61f4dfb1ec0a1b312c9ce45e8)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F439ad41.jpg&hash=a7429e32e69f78ee81a421791e38cbece50804a8)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgsafe.org%2F43cd49d.jpg&hash=c05ab54441c71024c9c4ec837c4bf5b79c8efbea)
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This story is too funny! ;D :2funny:
My favorite all-time "Jug puts Ronica in her place" story... :2funny:
I love those silent stories. Still, this pantomime has a very 19th Century feel to it. You'd think these guys had never seen a bare shoulder on a woman before! ;D
Great story. It's amazing that pantomime can say so much without saying anything. :2funny: I think DeCarlo did this, right? Harry Lucey also could draw pantomime, probably better than any other Archie artist. I guess someone "wrote" this too. I wonder if it was Frank Doyle? ???
Quote from: SAGG on June 02, 2016, 04:11:27 PM
Great story. It's amazing that pantomime can say so much without saying anything. :2funny: I think DeCarlo did this, right? Harry Lucey also could draw pantomime, probably better than any other Archie artist. I guess someone "wrote" this too. I wonder if it was Frank Doyle? ???
According to comics.org, it
was written by Frank Doyle.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 02, 2016, 06:13:32 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 01, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
Meanwhile, there is no evidence to indicate that she called anyone else. Occam's Razor, the hypothesis with the least assumptions should be selected.
The evidence would be Veronica's sour mood. If she only invited Jughead and he showed up, she should be satisfied with that. The fact that she's unhappy about the situation seems to indicate she hoped someone else would show up to eat the big breakfast she made. Or if she didn't invite anyone else, she seems to feel like this solution to getting rid of her big breakfast isn't much of an improvement on shoving it all down the garbage disposal.
Her intended guests were her parents but they left instead of eating the breakfast Veronica cooked, that's in the story, hence her bad mood at the end. I agreed with you, she likely just invited Jughead and Hot Dog to get rid of it, but there is no indication she called any of her other friends, and as I said before this is also a shipping thread and we're just having fun, there's no need to read too much into every comment that's made here.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 02, 2016, 06:29:46 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 02, 2016, 06:13:32 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 01, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
Meanwhile, there is no evidence to indicate that she called anyone else. Occam's Razor, the hypothesis with the least assumptions should be selected.
The evidence would be Veronica's sour mood. If she only invited Jughead and he showed up, she should be satisfied with that. The fact that she's unhappy about the situation seems to indicate she hoped someone else would show up to eat the big breakfast she made. Or if she didn't invite anyone else, she seems to feel like this solution to getting rid of her big breakfast isn't much of an improvement on shoving it all down the garbage disposal.
Her intended guests were her parents but they left instead of eating the breakfast Veronica cooked, that's in the story, hence her bad mood at the end. I agreed with you, she likely just invited Jughead and Hot Dog to get rid of it, but there is no indication she called any of her other friends, and as I said before this is also a shipping thread and we're just having fun, there's no need to read too much into every comment that's made here.
Exactly!
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 02, 2016, 05:54:02 PM
Quote from: SAGG on June 02, 2016, 04:11:27 PM
Great story. It's amazing that pantomime can say so much without saying anything. :2funny: I think DeCarlo did this, right? Harry Lucey also could draw pantomime, probably better than any other Archie artist. I guess someone "wrote" this too. I wonder if it was Frank Doyle? ???
According to comics.org, it was written by Frank Doyle.
It seems like most of the silent stories I've seen were written by Doyle, although I've seen at least one by Gladir, so I know he wasn't the only one writing them.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 02, 2016, 06:29:46 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 02, 2016, 06:13:32 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 01, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
Meanwhile, there is no evidence to indicate that she called anyone else. Occam's Razor, the hypothesis with the least assumptions should be selected.
The evidence would be Veronica's sour mood. If she only invited Jughead and he showed up, she should be satisfied with that. The fact that she's unhappy about the situation seems to indicate she hoped someone else would show up to eat the big breakfast she made. Or if she didn't invite anyone else, she seems to feel like this solution to getting rid of her big breakfast isn't much of an improvement on shoving it all down the garbage disposal.
Her intended guests were her parents but they left instead of eating the breakfast Veronica cooked, that's in the story, hence her bad mood at the end. I agreed with you, she likely just invited Jughead and Hot Dog to get rid of it, but there is no indication she called any of her other friends, and as I said before this is also a shipping thread and we're just having fun, there's no need to read too much into every comment that's made here.
Just her father, really. Mrs. Lodge doesn't seem to be in it, unless she made her excuses on a previous page. It does seem to be a lot of pancakes, sausages, fruit, and ... whatever that orange lumpy stuff is supposed to be (scrambled eggs, oatmeal, or hash browns?) just for Mr. Lodge, though. The way he takes off with "But I have to run now! -- Boy, life is full of all kinds of crazy surprises!" and a big smile on his face (he seems relieved) as he's leaving makes me think he's just looking for an excuse to get out of eating Ronnie's cooking. Or maybe he's pleased to see she made the effort, and it's the thought that counts, so he really is kind of proud of her, regardless of whether her cooking's any good or not. Hard to say if the "crazy surprises" he's referring to is the reason he suddenly has to rush off, or the fact that Veronica did something for him without help from the household staff (although wouldn't that be Gaston's job, not Smithers'?) ... could be
both, but now that I think about it, I'm more inclined to think the latter. I'm actually not sure what Mr. Lodge is talking about in that first panel about Smithers' day off, since she'd already obviously prepared the breakfast.
The fact that she would make that much food for just him also indicates she doesn't know anything about cooking. She should know he couldn't eat all that by himself, even if it didn't turn out to be inedible. Of course it's no problem for Jughead, and even enough to share it with Hot Dog. The irony is that if Hiram
had stayed and eaten her breakfast, she would have wound up with most of what she made still left over and had to throw it out anyway.
Speaking of Ronnie/Juggie shipping, when you get a really GOOD one, why is it posted over in the Reggie Mantle thread? ;)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ffish_and_flipsp2.png&hash=ca5c25a9febed1eddccbb3d91d2a14e85c8044f7)
That may be the most genuinely heroic thing I've ever seen Jughead do (because there's no indication he's aware of Reggie's prank) outside of a Captain Hero story. And more than that, Ronnie's affectionate gratitude here is 100% gen-u-wine, no "reader imagination" needed. She doesn't
just kiss him, she kisses him
at least three times. But they both thought it was a REAL shark, so he really is a hero, and deserves it, even if he's flinching. For Jughead though, that's a pretty weak example of flinching. Even though it's just the one panel, that one should be in the V/J shipping hall of fame. Betty just calmly stands there and calls him a hero. Veronica was obviously just looking for an excuse.
I love how Archie interprets these events ... he thinks he needs to invest in a spear gun (but only so it will "pay off" in kisses from Veronica) ... he doesn't think about just doing something selfless because it's the right thing to do.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 03, 2016, 12:55:47 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 02, 2016, 06:29:46 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 02, 2016, 06:13:32 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 01, 2016, 07:27:37 PM
Meanwhile, there is no evidence to indicate that she called anyone else. Occam's Razor, the hypothesis with the least assumptions should be selected.
The evidence would be Veronica's sour mood. If she only invited Jughead and he showed up, she should be satisfied with that. The fact that she's unhappy about the situation seems to indicate she hoped someone else would show up to eat the big breakfast she made. Or if she didn't invite anyone else, she seems to feel like this solution to getting rid of her big breakfast isn't much of an improvement on shoving it all down the garbage disposal.
Her intended guests were her parents but they left instead of eating the breakfast Veronica cooked, that's in the story, hence her bad mood at the end. I agreed with you, she likely just invited Jughead and Hot Dog to get rid of it, but there is no indication she called any of her other friends, and as I said before this is also a shipping thread and we're just having fun, there's no need to read too much into every comment that's made here.
Just her father, really. Mrs. Lodge doesn't seem to be in it, unless she made her excuses on a previous page. It does seem to be a lot of pancakes, sausages, fruit, and ... whatever that orange lumpy stuff is supposed to be (scrambled eggs, oatmeal, or hash browns?) just for Mr. Lodge, though. The way he takes off with "But I have to run now! -- Boy, life is full of all kinds of crazy surprises!" and a big smile on his face (he seems relieved) as he's leaving makes me think he's just looking for an excuse to get out of eating Ronnie's cooking. Or maybe he's pleased to see she made the effort, and it's the thought that counts, so he really is kind of proud of her, regardless of whether her cooking's any good or not. Hard to say if the "crazy surprises" he's referring to is the reason he suddenly has to rush off, or the fact that Veronica did something for him without help from the household staff (although wouldn't that be Gaston's job, not Smithers'?) ... could be both, but now that I think about it, I'm more inclined to think the latter. I'm actually not sure what Mr. Lodge is talking about in that first panel about Smithers' day off, since she'd already obviously prepared the breakfast.
The fact that she would make that much food for just him also indicates she doesn't know anything about cooking. She should know he couldn't eat all that by himself, even if it didn't turn out to be inedible. Of course it's no problem for Jughead, and even enough to share it with Hot Dog. The irony is that if Hiram had stayed and eaten her breakfast, she would have wound up with most of what she made still left over and had to throw it out anyway.
I have read the whole story, I can't get any scans right now because the CD-Rom it's on is in a storage locker, but yes the story is all about Veronica wanting genuine family time so she decides to surprise her parents by cooking them breakfast. She approaches her mother first who has to run off and do something and then Mr. Lodge has to leave too.
And it doesn't really look like she made that much, enough for three people but not too much that she'd have to throw most of it away.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 03, 2016, 12:55:47 AM
Speaking of Ronnie/Juggie shipping, when you get a really GOOD one, why is it posted over in the Reggie Mantle thread? ;)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2Ffish_and_flipsp2.png&hash=ca5c25a9febed1eddccbb3d91d2a14e85c8044f7)
That may be the most genuinely heroic thing I've ever seen Jughead do (because there's no indication he's aware of Reggie's prank) outside of a Captain Hero story. And more than that, Ronnie's affectionate gratitude here is 100% gen-u-wine, no "reader imagination" needed. She doesn't just kiss him, she kisses him at least three times. But they both thought it was a REAL shark, so he really is a hero, and deserves it, even if he's flinching. For Jughead though, that's a pretty weak example of flinching. Even though it's just the one panel, that one should be in the V/J shipping hall of fame. Betty just calmly stands there and calls him a hero. Veronica was obviously just looking for an excuse.
I thought it fit the Reggie thread better. There are also better Jughead/Veronica stories, I've just been restraining myself from posting them as well as trying to fit the "feud" theme.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.695/preview/)
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 03, 2016, 11:51:50 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.695/preview/)
Yes, and this was the proposal ;D
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2FIMG_6718.jpg&hash=bee4b335b6b57e951b19c1592048c2a58af6b8c3)
I didn't save the last page, but she actually becomes really in to the idea to the degree that Jughead loses his appetite.
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 03, 2016, 11:51:50 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.695/preview/)
Is that from that same story where they had to pretend to be married by being partnered up (Archie/Betty, Veronica/Jughead) for a class project in managing a family budget?
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 01, 2016, 02:05:39 AM
The only relationship here is that they're mutual co-prisoners who can't stand each other. But it does look as though Mr. Lodge and Betty are next in line to see the Incan Justice of the Peace.
Yuck.
Quote from: daren on June 06, 2016, 12:49:58 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 01, 2016, 02:05:39 AM
The only relationship here is that they're mutual co-prisoners who can't stand each other. But it does look as though Mr. Lodge and Betty are next in line to see the Incan Justice of the Peace.
Yuck.
Relax. I meant I don't attach much significance to some ritual performed on unwilling prisoners about to become human sacrifices. Human sacrifice = Yuck -- who cares about some stupid ritual involving Veronica/Jughead or Betty/Mr. Lodge. Priorities.
Yuck.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 05, 2016, 02:36:03 PM
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 03, 2016, 11:51:50 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.695/preview/)
Is that from that same story where they had to pretend to be married by being partnered up (Archie/Betty, Veronica/Jughead) for a class project in managing a family budget?
No, this is a different story. Veronica reads an article that claims a woman should not get married until she can make a perfect pie crust so she begs Betty to teach her how to bake.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 05, 2016, 12:39:22 PM
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 03, 2016, 11:51:50 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.695/preview/)
Yes, and this was the proposal ;D
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2FIMG_6718.jpg&hash=bee4b335b6b57e951b19c1592048c2a58af6b8c3)
I didn't save the last page, but she actually becomes really in to the idea to the degree that Jughead loses his appetite.
:o ;D Wow, Jughead actually proposed to her! Too bad you don't have the last page :(
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 07, 2016, 06:51:34 PM
:o ;D Wow, Jughead actually proposed to her! Too bad you don't have the last page :(
Veronica gets really into the idea and starts having all these plans about transforming Jughead. He becomes disgusted and runs off. Archie then tells Veronica how she managed to do what no one else has, she made Jughead lose his appetite. The story is "Wedded Blitz" in Jughead #316.
Interestingly enough, in an earlier issue Jughead lets Veronica transform him
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n9fuadEh0R1trm3ido1_1280.jpg&hash=080e46806cfa7e3b3d1d4ca39869684069879c12)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n9fuadEh0R1trm3ido2_1280.jpg&hash=52c9d24e3912868abbb7cbaa68af2de07f117d2f)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n9fuadEh0R1trm3ido3_1280.jpg&hash=7201fc8961cecd7d4986ae0a2334e667ddcc5cec)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n9fuadEh0R1trm3ido4_1280.jpg&hash=46044fe2bf13b77eb8aba9a11ee7ead96f815ae3)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n9fuadEh0R1trm3ido5_1280.jpg&hash=1370a7f08d2c640aee685fac4fed38802eaf9c14)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_n9fuadEh0R1trm3ido6_1280.jpg&hash=90bea3ed7794f41cf719f436c7c3a8b7f42a6e90)
If they played this like the film this story is based on Jug and Ron would have ended up together. As an aside, I like George Bernard Shaw's original ending that subsequent adaptions ignored better though.
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 07, 2016, 06:47:26 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 05, 2016, 02:36:03 PM
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 03, 2016, 11:51:50 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.695/preview/)
Is that from that same story where they had to pretend to be married by being partnered up (Archie/Betty, Veronica/Jughead) for a class project in managing a family budget?
No, this is a different story. Veronica reads an article that claims a woman should not get married until she can make a perfect pie crust so she begs Betty to teach her how to bake.
OOOOOkay.... I'm used to Archie stories sometimes being based on pretty bizarre premises, but that one really takes the cake pie. Matrimonial success based on the quality of pie crust. Right. :uglystupid2:
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 07, 2016, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 07, 2016, 06:47:26 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 05, 2016, 02:36:03 PM
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 03, 2016, 11:51:50 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.695/preview/)
Is that from that same story where they had to pretend to be married by being partnered up (Archie/Betty, Veronica/Jughead) for a class project in managing a family budget?
No, this is a different story. Veronica reads an article that claims a woman should not get married until she can make a perfect pie crust so she begs Betty to teach her how to bake.
OOOOOkay.... I'm used to Archie stories sometimes being based on pretty bizarre premises, but that one really takes the cake pie. Matrimonial success based on the quality of pie crust. Right. :uglystupid2:
Yeah, very silly but Veronica believed it :crazy2:
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.711/preview/)
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 08, 2016, 12:31:43 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 07, 2016, 11:33:02 PM
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 07, 2016, 06:47:26 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 05, 2016, 02:36:03 PM
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 03, 2016, 11:51:50 PM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.695/preview/)
Is that from that same story where they had to pretend to be married by being partnered up (Archie/Betty, Veronica/Jughead) for a class project in managing a family budget?
No, this is a different story. Veronica reads an article that claims a woman should not get married until she can make a perfect pie crust so she begs Betty to teach her how to bake.
OOOOOkay.... I'm used to Archie stories sometimes being based on pretty bizarre premises, but that one really takes the cake pie. Matrimonial success based on the quality of pie crust. Right. :uglystupid2:
Yeah, very silly but Veronica believed it :crazy2:
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/archiesgirls345.711/preview/)
I guess it could have been worse. Instead of the
Ladies Home Journal, she could have picked up a copy of the
Weekly World News.
I still suspect that "article" was actually a Betty Crocker advertisement.
Quote from: daren on June 06, 2016, 01:09:17 AM
Yuck.
It would make a great MAD parody of
Riverdale, though... Hiram has an affair with Betty, dumps Hermione, marries Betty, and she becomes Veronica's step-mom. Meanwhile, Archie elopes with Miss Grundy. Hilarity ensues, etc.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 08, 2016, 12:36:35 AM
...I still suspect that "article" was actually a Betty Crocker advertisement.
;D
Classic J/V feud cover:
(https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/1027837.jpg)
Classic cover, not so classic story.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief1.727/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief2.728/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief3.729/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief4.730/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief5.731/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief6.732/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief7.733/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief8.734/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief9.735/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief10.736/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/fudgethief11.737/preview/)
Is it just me or does Veronica put up with a LOT more from Jughead than he does from her?
HA! Great story! Back when Veronica was a good cook, I see. ;D Does anyone else remember a story where Jughead eats candies Veronica made but they were really bird treats?
Quote from: daren on June 13, 2016, 01:15:14 AM
Is it just me or does Veronica put up with a LOT more from Jughead than he does from her?
Maybe, sometimes Veronica doesn't have to do anything for her to earn Jughead's wrath but it can be the other way around too. Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, Jug's gotta annoy Veronica, especially if Dan Parent writes it.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 11, 2016, 04:19:30 AM
Classic J/V feud cover:
(https://d1466nnw0ex81e.cloudfront.net/n_iv/600/1027837.jpg)
The thing that really stands out about this cover is how Reggie's reacting. Why should he care? I figured he'd be smirking at the show...
^ Maybe V & J have been going at it for a while, so by now Reggie is annoyed.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 13, 2016, 02:37:45 PM
HA! Great story! Back when Veronica was a good cook, I see. ;D Does anyone else remember a story where Jughead eats candies Veronica made but they were really bird treats?
Yeah and not only did Jughead like her food but her father expected to, he must know she's a good cook in that story. I like Ronnie as a bad cook better though, it's funnier. I never saw the bird treat story.Quote
Maybe, sometimes Veronica doesn't have to do anything for her to earn Jughead's wrath but it can be the other way around too. Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, Jug's gotta annoy Veronica, especially if Dan Parent writes it.
Maybe she doesn't put up with a LOT more, but, more. In most Archie feuds the villain character IS the offender more (Betty vs. Veronica, Archie vs. Reggie, Jughead vs. Reggie), but with Jughead and Veronica, he does seem to sin against her more than the reverse, I never noticed how much till I started paying attention to these stories.
Quote from: daren on June 14, 2016, 03:46:24 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 13, 2016, 02:37:45 PM
HA! Great story! Back when Veronica was a good cook, I see. ;D Does anyone else remember a story where Jughead eats candies Veronica made but they were really bird treats?
Yeah and not only did Jughead like her food but her father expected to, he must know she's a good cook in that story. I like Ronnie as a bad cook better though, it's funnier. I never saw the bird treat story.
I haven't read the one about the bird treats, but it made me remember another story (that I think I read in the old forum)where Veronica made some meatballs?(or was it cookies? I can't remember) nobody wanted to eat them but Jughead asked her if he could have them and she's all happy that finally someone is appreciating her cooking, but it turns out he just wanted them so he could use them as cannon balls, or something :2funny:
And another story where she gives the guys a present, they think it's hard as stone cookies, so they don't eat them. It turns out they were hockey pucks. And then Jughead mentions he did use them to play hockey and she cries and says "Jughead, the ones I gave you
were cookies".
Quote from: daren on June 14, 2016, 03:46:24 AM
Maybe she doesn't put up with a LOT more, but, more. In most Archie feuds the villain character IS the offender more (Betty vs. Veronica, Archie vs. Reggie, Jughead vs. Reggie), but with Jughead and Veronica, he does seem to sin against her more than the reverse, I never noticed how much till I started paying attention to these stories.
I agree somewhat. A lot of times he has it in for Veronica because she's treating Betty or Archie unfairly, but you're right, he's more likely start something without provocation than she is.
Here is a good example
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p4.png&hash=ade78f013d24182301c92e2f0b705d0dc89ad9e4)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p6.png&hash=0cee179d6769ec68c5529f82c0c61443f050b428)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p7.png&hash=b2c54ef339dcfc8cef08fb422a04a342ce3b04da)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p8.png&hash=0a8c7c8e38b9f4c688a07e9212ed7d9eb3f524e5)
And of course, Jughead is behind it all
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p12.png&hash=04c72f94dd56b35e6a6b8c2a8f45d0ff136f67c7)
That's why I think Midge's assessment in "Object of Affection" might be true, that Jughead wants attention from Veronica, at least in Dan Parent's stories, while she's more content to just ignore him.
Quote from: daren on June 14, 2016, 03:46:24 AM
I like Ronnie as a bad cook better though, it's funnier..
It works for gags and such but half of me thinks it's silly sometimes. I just read a story where Veronica made a cake disaster because she messed with the ingredients due to her ignorance about baking e.g. putting a stick of butter in milk instead of using buttermilk, and that works for me but a lot just have her as a bad cook with no explanation. I don't know, just one of my pet peeves, I think Veronica, or anyone really, is smart enough to follow through with a recipe with some guidance. She's my favorite character so of course I want to see her succeed more often than not.
Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on June 14, 2016, 12:02:23 PM
I haven't read the one about the bird treats, but it made me remember another story (that I think I read in the old forum)where Veronica made some meatballs?(or was it cookies? I can't remember) nobody wanted to eat them but Jughead asked her if he could have them and she's all happy that finally someone is appreciating her cooking, but it turns out he just wanted them so he could use them as cannon balls, or something :2funny:
And another story where she gives the guys a present, they think it's hard as stone cookies, so they don't eat them. It turns out they were hockey pucks. And then Jughead mentions he did use them to play hockey and she cries and says "Jughead, the ones I gave you were cookies".
Oh yes, I have both those stories. ;D That second story might be the only time I've seen Jughead comfort Veronica, but I have to applaud Veronica on her confidence to give out her cookies as Christmas presents. Seriously, does she not try her cooking before subjecting others to it?
Quote from: Thrillho on June 07, 2016, 09:16:43 PM
If they played this like the film this story is based on Jug and Ron would have ended up together. As an aside, I like George Bernard Shaw's original ending that subsequent adaptions ignored better though.
I am a big fan of that play, and Shaw's original ending.
Quote from: Original Sin on June 14, 2016, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 07, 2016, 09:16:43 PM
If they played this like the film this story is based on Jug and Ron would have ended up together. As an aside, I like George Bernard Shaw's original ending that subsequent adaptions ignored better though.
I am a big fan of that play, and Shaw's original ending.
YES! ;D It was so progressive for its time too. Eliza decides to be independent of Higgins realizing if she stays she will have to be subservient to him and marries Freddy instead so she can be the boss in the relationship. It's a shame contemporary attitudes prevailed and Eliza staying with Higgins is considered the "happy" ending.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 14, 2016, 09:06:03 PM
Quote from: Original Sin on June 14, 2016, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 07, 2016, 09:16:43 PM
If they played this like the film this story is based on Jug and Ron would have ended up together. As an aside, I like George Bernard Shaw's original ending that subsequent adaptions ignored better though.
I am a big fan of that play, and Shaw's original ending.
YES! ;D It was so progressive for its time too. Eliza decides to be independent of Higgins realizing if she stays she will have to be subservient to him and marries Freddy instead so she can be the boss in the relationship. It's a shame contemporary attitudes prevailed and Eliza staying with Higgins is considered the "happy" ending.
Shaw was quite disappointed that the play became such a commercial success. Poor man, he had to fight everyone to preserve the integrity of his heroine. I think I am glad he did not live to see the 1964 adaptation.
I like Jughead's Ha! t-shirt :)
Quote from: Thrillho on June 14, 2016, 01:30:19 PM
Oh yes, I have both those stories. ;D That second story might be the only time I've seen Jughead comfort Veronica, but I have to applaud Veronica on her confidence to give out her cookies as Christmas presents. Seriously, does she not try her cooking before subjecting others to it?
Apparently not. Maybe it's because she is so sure of herself- after all, she is
the Veronica Lodge. She doesn't feel the need to try her own cooking, but she does force others to do it
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.tinypic.com%2Fe9ev5j.jpg&hash=435fdfa41a8b7baff7acfb1cf1737af4f0379352)
(Source: riverdalegang tumblr)
Quote from: Thrillho on June 14, 2016, 01:30:19 PM
I agree somewhat. A lot of times he has it in for Veronica because she's treating Betty or Archie unfairly, but you're right, he's more likely start something without provocation than she is.
Here is a good example
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p4.png&hash=ade78f013d24182301c92e2f0b705d0dc89ad9e4)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p6.png&hash=0cee179d6769ec68c5529f82c0c61443f050b428)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p7.png&hash=b2c54ef339dcfc8cef08fb422a04a342ce3b04da)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p8.png&hash=0a8c7c8e38b9f4c688a07e9212ed7d9eb3f524e5)
And of course, Jughead is behind it all
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p12.png&hash=04c72f94dd56b35e6a6b8c2a8f45d0ff136f67c7)
That's why I think Midge's assessment in "Object of Affection" might be true, that Jughead wants attention from Veronica, at least in Dan Parent's stories, while she's more content to just ignore him.
You could be right, something important must compel him to insult the girl who controls his access to the Lodge refridgerator/parties.
Quote
Quote from: daren on June 14, 2016, 03:46:24 AM
I like Ronnie as a bad cook better though, it's funnier..
It works for gags and such but half of me thinks it's silly sometimes. I just read a story where Veronica made a cake disaster because she messed with the ingredients due to her ignorance about baking e.g. putting a stick of butter in milk instead of using buttermilk, and that works for me but a lot just have her as a bad cook with no explanation. I don't know, just one of my pet peeves, I think Veronica, or anyone really, is smart enough to follow through with a recipe with some guidance. She's my favorite character so of course I want to see her succeed more often than not.
I like to see her succeed at some things too, but cooking is so unimportant I don't care about it. I mean it's great if people DO know how to cook but it's no reflection on your intellect or character. Yeah the bad-cook-Veronica stories aren't that believable, cooking isn't rocket science, but if you look at those stories as fantasy/cartoon situations they work.
Here's Veronica striking first and Jughead striking back!
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/kingjughead1.759/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/kingjughead2.760/preview)
Strange story.
Quote from: daren on June 21, 2016, 03:49:30 AM
You could be right, something important must compel him to insult the girl who controls his access to the Lodge refridgerator/parties.
Ha, you're right, it would be in Jughead's best interest to suck up to Veronica, but we wouldn't have the antagonistic relationship we love.
Quote from: daren on June 21, 2016, 03:49:30 AM
I like to see her succeed at some things too, but cooking is so unimportant I don't care about it. I mean it's great if people DO know how to cook but it's no reflection on your intellect or character. Yeah the bad-cook-Veronica stories aren't that believable, cooking isn't rocket science, but if you look at those stories as fantasy/cartoon situations they work.
It's just one of my pet peeves when capable adults can't handle feeding themselves and I'm just projecting. ::) This doesn't really apply to Veronica since she's perpetually a teenager and isn't on her own but I get so annoyed in relationships when the other person isn't capable of seemingly doing anything. >:(
I think a bit of this story was posted upthread but here's the whole thing.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvsk1cDEK1qz4rgp.png&hash=9995c3259402874046329b642e1858da8f5c43bb)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvskqVcNS1qz4rgp.png&hash=46e5acb12e836dbecbd30f8b299bdc822ec60f28)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvslf60kv1qz4rgp.png&hash=185b6115926a5bc19a579ccd741ccd0d101d15dd)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvsm9Kv5a1qz4rgp.png&hash=9d5c00935d03a511da308863c2e2f615e50a0cb7)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvsogmSVk1qz4rgp.png&hash=b342ea98ba1d5211bf3ee136edfb1b52492d458f)
I think the ending is really clever and goes to show that Jughead really does care for Ronnie, he wasn't even too keen on her reward.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 23, 2016, 02:55:49 PM
Quote from: daren on June 21, 2016, 03:49:30 AM
You could be right, something important must compel him to insult the girl who controls his access to the Lodge refridgerator/parties.
Ha, you're right, it would be in Jughead's best interest to suck up to Veronica, but we wouldn't have the antagonistic relationship we love.
Quote from: daren on June 21, 2016, 03:49:30 AM
I like to see her succeed at some things too, but cooking is so unimportant I don't care about it. I mean it's great if people DO know how to cook but it's no reflection on your intellect or character. Yeah the bad-cook-Veronica stories aren't that believable, cooking isn't rocket science, but if you look at those stories as fantasy/cartoon situations they work.
I didn't say that right, I meant that if you DON'T know how to cook it's no reflection on your intellect or character, of course if you know how to cook it means you have skills (not to brag but I'm pretty good at it myself), it's just that it's not needed.
Quote
It's just one of my pet peeves when capable adults can't handle feeding themselves and I'm just projecting. ::) This doesn't really apply to Veronica since she's perpetually a teenager and isn't on her own but I get so annoyed in relationships when the other person isn't capable of seemingly doing anything. >:(
Oh yeah been there done that :( . Well I think Ronnie's best when she does make mistakes a lot, she's more cute and sympathetic that way and thats what makes her the funniest Archie girl but there should be more hints that under all her effeduppedness there's the budding brilliance at business she inherited from her dad, the thing that makes all the generations of Lodges great tycoons in spite of their problems. That's how I like to see it anyway, I like that the girl who can't even boil an egg like a proper female might blossom into a financial mastermind who owns half the world (and still doesn't know how to boil an egg).
Quote
I think a bit of this story was posted upthread but here's the whole thing.
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvsk1cDEK1qz4rgp.png&hash=9995c3259402874046329b642e1858da8f5c43bb)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvskqVcNS1qz4rgp.png&hash=46e5acb12e836dbecbd30f8b299bdc822ec60f28)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvslf60kv1qz4rgp.png&hash=185b6115926a5bc19a579ccd741ccd0d101d15dd)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvsm9Kv5a1qz4rgp.png&hash=9d5c00935d03a511da308863c2e2f615e50a0cb7)(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FJV%2Ftumblr_inline_msvsogmSVk1qz4rgp.png&hash=b342ea98ba1d5211bf3ee136edfb1b52492d458f)
I think the ending is really clever and goes to show that Jughead really does care for Ronnie, he wasn't even too keen on her reward.
Awesome story, ending, beginning, everything! They should put it in a book!
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jugronart.768/preview/)
from DA by "crunkFONICAS", feels like there's more to it somewhere doesn't it?
Quote from: Thrillho on June 14, 2016, 01:30:19 PM
Quote from: daren on June 14, 2016, 03:46:24 AM
Maybe she doesn't put up with a LOT more, but, more. In most Archie feuds the villain character IS the offender more (Betty vs. Veronica, Archie vs. Reggie, Jughead vs. Reggie), but with Jughead and Veronica, he does seem to sin against her more than the reverse, I never noticed how much till I started paying attention to these stories.
I agree somewhat. A lot of times he has it in for Veronica because she's treating Betty or Archie unfairly, but you're right, he's more likely start something without provocation than she is.
Here is a good example
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p4.png&hash=ade78f013d24182301c92e2f0b705d0dc89ad9e4)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p6.png&hash=0cee179d6769ec68c5529f82c0c61443f050b428)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p7.png&hash=b2c54ef339dcfc8cef08fb422a04a342ce3b04da)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p8.png&hash=0a8c7c8e38b9f4c688a07e9212ed7d9eb3f524e5)
And of course, Jughead is behind it all
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FBampV248p12.png&hash=04c72f94dd56b35e6a6b8c2a8f45d0ff136f67c7)
That's why I think Midge's assessment in "Object of Affection" might be true, that Jughead wants attention from Veronica, at least in Dan Parent's stories, while she's more content to just ignore him.
Ah, but this isn't the first Veronica/Jellybean story, it's the second (or possibly even the third). In the first one, Veronica doesn't like Jellybean because she thinks that she's just like a little Jughead. Nevertheless, it doesn't prevent Veronica from trying to exploit Jellybean's innate cuteness when she tries to babysit her as an excuse to get an "in" with a hunky male nanny that she meets in the park. In that one, Jughead finds out what's going on, and with Jellybean as an accomplice, teaches Veronica a well-deserved lesson.
The above story is kind of sweet, because after Jellybean senses that Veronica has learned her lesson, she only torments her a little bit for good measure -- sort of like the guys busting on each other in camaraderie -- before deciding that she's a good egg after all, and she actually likes her. After that, Jellybean isn't willing to go along with her brother's dirty tricks. Just goes to show Jellybean has a mind of her own.
Jughead & Veronica still seem to hate each other in the reboot of Archie & the new reboot of Jughead. Will get along in Adam Hughes version of Betty & Veronica. Probably not.
Quote from: BettyReggie on June 25, 2016, 09:50:15 AM
Jughead & Veronica still seem to hate each other in the reboot of Archie & the new reboot of Jughead. Will get along in Adam Hughes version of Betty & Veronica. Probably not.
I think the Jughead and Veronica feud will go on in whatever Archie comic is made. Jughead just has resentment towards the way Veronica treats his best buddy Archie and Veronica just can't stand how Jughead seems to always be getting in the way of time she wants to spend with Archie.
Quote from: daren on June 25, 2016, 01:45:29 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jugronart.768/preview/)
from DA by "crunkFONICAS", feels like there's more to it somewhere doesn't it?
Lol, I've seen that one before and I inferred that Jughead was gay though. I mean, Veronica doesn't exactly have a working gaydar.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 25, 2016, 06:11:52 AM
Ah, but this isn't the first Veronica/Jellybean story, it's the second (or possibly even the third). In the first one, Veronica doesn't like Jellybean because she thinks that she's just like a little Jughead. Nevertheless, it doesn't prevent Veronica from trying to exploit Jellybean's innate cuteness when she tries to babysit her as an excuse to get an "in" with a hunky male nanny that she meets in the park. In that one, Jughead finds out what's going on, and with Jellybean as an accomplice, teaches Veronica a well-deserved lesson.
The above story is kind of sweet, because after Jellybean senses that Veronica has learned her lesson, she only torments her a little bit for good measure -- sort of like the guys busting on each other in camaraderie -- before deciding that she's a good egg after all, and she actually likes her. After that, Jellybean isn't willing to go along with her brother's dirty tricks. Just goes to show Jellybean has a mind of her own.
What exactly did Veronica do wrong in this story to warrant "being taught a lesson"? She was right Jughead was out to get her through Jellybean.
Furthermore, there is no continuity in the Archie-verse, not even with the same writers. Each story is self-contained and has no bearing on any others. "Beach Blanket Babysitters" was published in 2010 and it didn't acknowledge a 2003 story where Veronica and Jellybean are already close, "Hey Sister."
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_1302.jpg&hash=0c658bb401d88538fa2504d60e217338e4550901)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_1303.jpg&hash=3e87f8ad9848df58b7e903e46cf69571035a1785)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_1304.jpg&hash=be563ea14e3103bd51f0ad809d55825ac57d00f7)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_1305.jpg&hash=009ce3324ab0910907ce484ab75bf49ac93c5eed)
(https://www.archiefans.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi393.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp13%2Fnewest_gloss%2FIMG_1306.jpg&hash=0f392f087e593aa7d7a45f13d881a28fc24fc24a)
They're both written by Dan Parent but the second one contradicts the first. They were already friends and liked each other.
All we know in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" is that Jughead influenced Jellybean to be anti-Veronica for no apparent reason other than he wants to mess with her.
Quote from: BettyReggie on June 25, 2016, 09:50:15 AM
Jughead & Veronica still seem to hate each other in the reboot of Archie & the new reboot of Jughead. Will get along in Adam Hughes version of Betty & Veronica. Probably not.
I wonder what Mark Waid is going to do with them. They haven't really interacted aside from a look and offhand comments from Veronica. You would think they have something to talk about considering he used to be super spoiled rich too. It's pretty obvious why Jughead would dislike Veronica but there's no apparent reason why she would dislike him considering she's trying to make things with Archie work. I think the best chance for interaction would be Archie's book. Betty & Veronica probably doesn't have any room for Jughead yet, unless Hughes is making Jughead Betty's confidant but I don't see Jughead really becoming a part of that book.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 25, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
What exactly did Veronica do wrong in this story to warrant "being taught a lesson"? She was right Jughead was out to get her through Jellybean.
Furthermore, there is no continuity in the Archie-verse, not even with the same writers. Each story is self-contained and has no bearing on any others. "Beach Blanket Babysitters" was published in 2010 and it didn't acknowledge a 2003 story where Veronica and Jellybean are already close, "Hey Sister."
They're both written by Dan Parent but the second one contradicts the first. They were already friends and liked each other.
All we know in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" is that Jughead influenced Jellybean to be anti-Veronica for no apparent reason other than he wants to mess with her.
I'm sure I have "Beach Blanket Babysitters" in a collection somewhere, but I can't remember where now. And since you didn't post the entire story, I can't remember exactly how it started now or what it was that changed Jellybean's mind about Veronica and made her decide that she was her friend after all. Let's remember here that Jellybean is just a child too, who's just having some innocent fun, and perhaps being a little mischievous as well. Let's not forget the point of the story, which is that Jellybean is capable of making her own choices, and isn't just some kind of puppet for Jughead to use to carry out his will.
As far as continuity is concerned, you're mistaken about there not being ANY between stories in Archie Comics. Sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn't. In most cases where there is, a footnote will alert the reader to the prior story, but just because there
isn't a footnote, I don't assume no continuity unless there's a direct contradiction that seems to say otherwise. I'm thinking specifically about a couple of B&V Christmas stories ("Jingles All the Way" and "Holiday Watch") featuring both Jingles (and his human guise of Jimmy) and Sugar Plum (and her human guise as Summer), which appeared almost a year apart and ARE connected (and a footnote tells you so). In the next story in which the two characters appear together, there's no continuity with the prior two stories -- and all of them are by Dan Parent.
I assumed in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" that it was referencing the first story where Veronica basically uses Jellybean for selfish reasons to cast herself in a favorable light as a caring person who loves children (when the opposite is the true case, in reality, in that first story), and that Jellybean was somehow remembering that. I didn't read "Hey Sister" in the order it came out, I read it as a reprint, so I wasn't really sure where it fit vis-a-vis the other two Jellybean/Veronica stories. There's yet another Veronica/Jellybean story involving Mr. Lodge (who turns out to be a collector of valuable old PEZ dispensers, one of which Jellybean takes a fancy to) as well, and I think that's the one I was thinking of as the second story.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 25, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
Quote from: daren on June 25, 2016, 01:45:29 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/jugronart.768/preview/)
from DA by "crunkFONICAS", feels like there's more to it somewhere doesn't it?
Lol, I've seen that one before and I inferred that Jughead was gay though. I mean, Veronica doesn't exactly have a working gaydar.
Okay looking at this picture again I think you might be right, my gaydar doesn't work either!
Quote
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Archie is so confusing with its off/on continuity. What a cute story though, I like that Jughead didn't just yell at her to get out (not that he could, with all the time he spends at her house) and his parents tried to be nice about it too.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 25, 2016, 01:28:09 PM
I'm sure I have "Beach Blanket Babysitters" in a collection somewhere, but I can't remember where now. And since you didn't post the entire story, I can't remember exactly how it started now or what it was that changed Jellybean's mind about Veronica and made her decide that she was her friend after all. Let's remember here that Jellybean is just a child too, who's just having some innocent fun, and perhaps being a little mischievous as well. Let's not forget the point of the story, which is that Jellybean is capable of making her own choices, and isn't just some kind of puppet for Jughead to use to carry out his will.
As far as continuity is concerned, you're mistaken about there not being ANY between stories in Archie Comics. Sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn't. In most cases where there is, a footnote will alert the reader to the prior story, but just because there isn't a footnote, I don't assume no continuity unless there's a direct contradiction that seems to say otherwise. I'm thinking specifically about a couple of B&V Christmas stories ("Jingles All the Way" and "Holiday Watch") featuring both Jingles (and his human guise of Jimmy) and Sugar Plum (and her human guise as Summer), which appeared almost a year apart and ARE connected (and a footnote tells you so). In the next story in which the two characters appear together, there's no continuity with the prior two stories -- and all of them are by Dan Parent.
I assumed in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" that it was referencing the first story where Veronica basically uses Jellybean for selfish reasons to cast herself in a favorable light as a caring person who loves children (when the opposite is the true case, in reality, in that first story), and that Jellybean was somehow remembering that. I didn't read "Hey Sister" in the order it came out, I read it as a reprint, so I wasn't really sure where it fit vis-a-vis the other two Jellybean/Veronica stories. There's yet another Veronica/Jellybean story involving Mr. Lodge (who turns out to be a collector of valuable old PEZ dispensers, one of which Jellybean takes a fancy to) as well, and I think that's the one I was thinking of as the second story.
To reiterate:
Quote from: Thrillho on June 25, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
All we know in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" is that Jughead influenced Jellybean to be anti-Veronica for no apparent reason other than he wants to mess with her.
There is no editors note, no call-backs (except Jug and Ron's tension) and I'm not going to do any mental gymnastics to try to justify that Veronica did something to warrant Jughead and Jellybean's pranks and I highly doubt Archie Comics or Dan Parent expects us to remember every story and connect them all together without an editor's note. All daren and I noticed was that Jughead tends to mess with Veronica without provocation more likely than she is, though the vast majority of Jughead vs Veronica stories tend to have them go at it in a response to something.
I didn't want to post the whole story as the focus was not on Veronica and Jellybean's relationship but Jughead and Veronica's but here's the beginning anyway.
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And we're shown that Veronica was right, Jughead was influencing Jellybean before she had formed her own opinion of Veronica.
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Thanks for posting the other part. Jughead turned Jellybean into a little brat, almost gave Leroy a run for his money! I agree that usually we can't count on continuity to justify payback like in this case but frustratingly the writers sometimes do. :P
Sometimes Jughead's proxies do his work without him meaning them to...
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/amynahincident.779/preview/)
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/amynahincident2.780/preview/)
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(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/amynahincident11.789/preview/)
Quote from: daren on June 28, 2016, 01:59:46 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/amynahincident3.781/preview/)
I have read this story before and I can't believe I didn't notice what Jughead said. :2funny: Sometimes I'm surprised what Archie gets away with.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 27, 2016, 05:35:21 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 25, 2016, 01:28:09 PM
I'm sure I have "Beach Blanket Babysitters" in a collection somewhere, but I can't remember where now. And since you didn't post the entire story, I can't remember exactly how it started now or what it was that changed Jellybean's mind about Veronica and made her decide that she was her friend after all. Let's remember here that Jellybean is just a child too, who's just having some innocent fun, and perhaps being a little mischievous as well. Let's not forget the point of the story, which is that Jellybean is capable of making her own choices, and isn't just some kind of puppet for Jughead to use to carry out his will.
As far as continuity is concerned, you're mistaken about there not being ANY between stories in Archie Comics. Sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn't. In most cases where there is, a footnote will alert the reader to the prior story, but just because there isn't a footnote, I don't assume no continuity unless there's a direct contradiction that seems to say otherwise. I'm thinking specifically about a couple of B&V Christmas stories ("Jingles All the Way" and "Holiday Watch") featuring both Jingles (and his human guise of Jimmy) and Sugar Plum (and her human guise as Summer), which appeared almost a year apart and ARE connected (and a footnote tells you so). In the next story in which the two characters appear together, there's no continuity with the prior two stories -- and all of them are by Dan Parent.
I assumed in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" that it was referencing the first story where Veronica basically uses Jellybean for selfish reasons to cast herself in a favorable light as a caring person who loves children (when the opposite is the true case, in reality, in that first story), and that Jellybean was somehow remembering that. I didn't read "Hey Sister" in the order it came out, I read it as a reprint, so I wasn't really sure where it fit vis-a-vis the other two Jellybean/Veronica stories. There's yet another Veronica/Jellybean story involving Mr. Lodge (who turns out to be a collector of valuable old PEZ dispensers, one of which Jellybean takes a fancy to) as well, and I think that's the one I was thinking of as the second story.
To reiterate:
Quote from: Thrillho on June 25, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
All we know in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" is that Jughead influenced Jellybean to be anti-Veronica for no apparent reason other than he wants to mess with her.
There is no editors note, no call-backs (except Jug and Ron's tension) and I'm not going to do any mental gymnastics to try to justify that Veronica did something to warrant Jughead and Jellybean's pranks and I highly doubt Archie Comics or Dan Parent expects us to remember every story and connect them all together without an editor's note. All daren and I noticed was that Jughead tends to mess with Veronica without provocation more likely than she is, though the vast majority of Jughead vs Veronica stories tend to have them go at it in a response to something.
Well, whatever works for you guys. When I'm reading these stories, I'm not necessarily analyzing when and where they may have been published. I don't read an Archie digest, finish the story, and then go look it up on the GCDb to try to place it in context of the company's publishing history. Sometimes I'll do that later for select character appearances, but indexing is spotty. Ironically, the day I read your reply was the same day that B&V FRIENDS COMICS ANNUAL #249 had come in the mail, so I got to read "Beach Blanket Babysitters" again -- they reprinted the story again in that issue. Weird synchronicity, huh?
The other thing is that when I read all three of the stories, there just seemed to be a logical continuity there between the first one (blanking on the title here) where Veronica used Jellybean as an unwitting accomplice, in trying to make a good impression on the hunky male nanny she met in the park, and it ticked Jughead off when he discovered it. Then I happened to read "Beach Blanket Babysitters" not too long afterwards, and it just seemed like a logical progression from the first story. The "mental gymnastics" involved amounted to me thinking "Oh yeah, there was that story where Veronica babysat Jellybean... THAT didn't end too well for her", instead of reading her say "Her brother has poisoned her mind against me" and me thinking "Uh... well THAT sounds just a little cray-cray..." (because I'm not as nice as Betty, who just says "That's just silly.") ... Yeah, and slightly
insane, too, considering that she says this
before anything has even happened in THIS story.
So in order for me to believe that Veronica is more or less interacting with Jellybean for the first time here, I need to believe not only that she's totally paranoid when it comes to Jughead, but that Jughead carefully instructed a toddler to put sand in Veronica's sandwich, throw cold sand on her, bury her up to her neck in sand, and then put a plastic spider in the middle of her forehead. And HOW exactly does Jughead know that Veronica's going to be going to the beach with Betty the day that Betty was scheduled to babysit Jellybean? I sort of have to wonder how Jughead is so omniscient that he knows that Veronica is going to decide to take a nap on the beach, giving his remotely controlled puppet a chance to do his dirty work by burying her, too. The only thing we know for a fact here is that Jughead gave Jellybean a plastic spider. Jellybean could have told him what she did with it afterwards. I guess he could have suggested that she use it to play a trick on Veronica (assuming Betty had informed him well in advance that she planned to take Jellybean to the beach that day, and was taking Veronica along, too) "in response to something". Frankly, it's a lot easier to believe that the prior story happened, and Jellybean didn't like Veronica because of that.
Then there's the other one where Veronica's genuinely interested in Jellybean for herself, and just because she's cute -- she wishes she had a little sister like her, and gets obsessed and is spending too much time at the Jones' house, which naturally seems to take place after "Beach Blanket Babysitters", where Ronnie and Jellybean become friends, and Veronica followed Betty's suggestion to "introduce her (Jellybean) to
your world". Something she's continuing to do in the story where she's spending so much time at the Jones house. So it's a little like connect-the-dots when you're just reading whole bunches of these stories trying to catch up with years worth of the company's publishing efforts. "Oh yeah, it seems like this one came before that one, and the other one seems like it came after." Sure, if you read them exactly the way they came out, it's going to seem a lot different, with sometimes huge gaps of time between stories.
Meanwhile, when I read Archie stories I don't read too much into them, and since there is no clear continuity--with some exceptions--I can only take it all at face value so arguing this is pointless.
I do have the story you keep referring to in relation to "Beach Blanket Babysitters", "Oh, Nanny Boy"
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Veronica's lie about the Jones' was terrible but I don't really see how she is any worse than Betty who would have done the same.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 28, 2016, 11:37:58 PM
Quote from: daren on June 28, 2016, 01:59:46 AM
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/amynahincident3.781/preview/)
I have read this story before and I can't believe I didn't notice what Jughead said. :2funny: Sometimes I'm surprised what Archie gets away with.
Yeah, and even stranger that Al Hartley wrote it. I think that MUST be miscredited, I can't believe he would put that in there!
Quote from: Thrillho on June 29, 2016, 07:13:50 PM
Veronica's lie about the Jones' was terrible but I don't really see how she is any worse than Betty who would have done the same.
Thanks for posting that. Again, it's one I know I have in a collection
somewhere... but ??
I guess the only mitigating factor/ethical difference for Betty is that she and Jellybean have a relationship already, and they genuinely like one another. Betty might be using her a little bit here, but she loves spending time with Jellybean anyway, so really she's not trying to trick this guy into thinking she's compassionate and caring when she isn't (unlike Veronica, who doesn't even really like Jellybean in this story).
Quote from: daren on June 30, 2016, 04:33:15 AM
Yeah, and even stranger that Al Hartley wrote it. I think that MUST be miscredited, I can't believe he would put that in there!
I wondered if it was him; it looked like his art. I'm not that surprised that he would give Veronica the bird. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he usually go out of his way to portray Reggie and Veronica negatively or find a way to punish them?
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 30, 2016, 07:29:47 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 29, 2016, 07:13:50 PM
Veronica's lie about the Jones' was terrible but I don't really see how she is any worse than Betty who would have done the same.
Thanks for posting that. Again, it's one I know I have in a collection somewhere... but ??
I guess the only mitigating factor/ethical difference for Betty is that she and Jellybean have a relationship already, and they genuinely like one another. Betty might be using her a little bit here, but she loves spending time with Jellybean anyway, so really she's not trying to trick this guy into thinking she's compassionate and caring when she isn't (unlike Veronica, who doesn't even really like Jellybean in this story).
Regardless of being compassionate or caring, she is still using Jellybean and she would still have to make up a lie like Veronica did to get the hot nanny to come over and stay.
I do wonder what happens when Nanny Boy finds out the truth, that Betty set up Veronica to look like a kidnapper to get a date with him.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
I do wonder what happens when Nanny Boy finds out the truth, that Betty set up Veronica to look like a kidnapper to get a date with him.
I don't know about that. Looks to me, if I read it right, that's all on Jughead. A bit over the top on the overacting there. Did something happen in between that panel where Betty says "We should get Jellybean back. It's late" and when Veronica phoned Mrs. Jones to "borrow" Jellybean? How did Betty set her up to do that? Were mirrors involved? Why would Betty call Mrs. Jones and ask to take Jellybean if she knew Veronica had her? Other than that, it seems like Betty didn't actually DO anything. The fact that she benefits from Jughead's "rescue" of the "kidnapped" Jellybean is immaterial. She doesn't have some kind of mind-control powers to make people do what she wants them to. Nope, it's all Jughead from what I see there. Betty may have alerted him to the fact that Veronica had Jellybean, but then again it might have been Mrs. Jones who told him (he does live there) -- hard to say, the story doesn't tell us that. Appears to me that the real winner here is Jughead. I do kind of wonder how he explained to his mother why he was bringing Jellybean home instead of Veronica. It's a mystery, I guess.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 30, 2016, 02:16:07 PM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
I do wonder what happens when Nanny Boy finds out the truth, that Betty set up Veronica to look like a kidnapper to get a date with him.
I don't know about that. Looks to me, if I read it right, that's all on Jughead. A bit over the top on the overacting there. Did something happen in between that panel where Betty says "We should get Jellybean back. It's late" and when Veronica phoned Mrs. Jones to "borrow" Jellybean? How did Betty set her up to do that? Were mirrors involved? Why would Betty call Mrs. Jones and ask to take Jellybean if she knew Veronica had her? Other than that, it seems like Betty didn't actually DO anything. The fact that she benefits from Jughead's "rescue" of the "kidnapped" Jellybean is immaterial. She doesn't have some kind of mind-control powers to make people do what she wants them to. Nope, it's all Jughead from what I see there. Betty may have alerted him to the fact that Veronica had Jellybean, but then again it might have been Mrs. Jones who told him (he does live there) -- hard to say, the story doesn't tell us that. Appears to me that the real winner here is Jughead. I do kind of wonder how he explained to his mother why he was bringing Jellybean home instead of Veronica. It's a mystery, I guess.
I'll concede Betty probably didn't come up with the kidnapping angle but once she found out Veronica was pulling the same scheme she wanted to, she conspired with Jughead to make Veronica look bad and get the nanny for herself. Why else would she be hanging around the Lodge mansion and thanking Jughead, saying she owes him? This story was also featured in a Betty vs. Veronica digital collection signifying that this is a Betty/Veronica conflict, not Jughead/Veronica.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 10:05:39 PM
I'll concede Betty probably didn't come up with the kidnapping angle but once she found out Veronica was pulling the same scheme she wanted to, she conspired with Jughead to make Veronica look bad and get the nanny for herself. Why else would she be hanging around the Lodge mansion and thanking Jughead, saying she owes him? This story was also featured in a Betty vs. Veronica digital collection signifying that this is a Betty/Veronica conflict, not Jughead/Veronica.
Jughead's already chomping at the bit to "do it again". Can't say I have much sympathy for Veronica here, either. Veronica is expected to be imperfect, so the severity of any ethical violations she commits is reduced, while Betty, on the other hand IS expected to be perfect, so the severity of any ethical violations SHE commits are treated that much more harshly. On the other hand, no credit is given to the fact that Betty cares about and loves Jellybean. Veronica couldn't care less about her in this story, only about herself and what she can gain from Jellybean. Why do you think Jughead LIKES Betty, but DISlikes Veronica? The REAL crime here is that Veronica has
deceived Mrs. Jones into believing that she's leaving her daughter with a responsible and loving caregiver. Betty, on the other hand, isn't expected to behave like a normal teenager at all -- she's expected to be inhumanly perfect, and immune to her natural attraction to Brad. Since that's pretty much typical behavior for Veronica, she gets excused.
What was the proper ethical course of action for Jughead to take when he learned of the situation?
1. Do nothing. What's done is done. Take it under advisement, and don't allow Veronica to sit with Jellybean in the future.
2. Alert Mrs. Jones to what's going on, and let her deal with the situation. (THAT actually might have been interesting. Certainly more dramatic, but not as funny.)
3. Go and collect Jellybean on some pretext, but don't embarrass Veronica.
You COULD argue that by not telling his mother, and instead merely embarrassing Veronica in front of Brad, Jughead has actually let Veronica off lightly. I wonder what would have happened if Jughead had used his Time Police Beanie to go back to that moment in the park where Betty and Veronica were talking, and used a camcorder to record Veronica's comment about "I'll stick to goldfish! They're less work!" and showed it to Mrs. Jones? I'm pretty sure Mrs. Jones would have gone ballistic on Veronica if she could have seen THAT. Even just telling her what happened, of course Mrs. Jones is going to take Jughead and Betty's version of the story over Veronica's version. Consider Mrs. Jones' phone conversation with Veronica... "But you just SAW her this afternoon!" -- Mrs. J. seems to dimly sense that something is not quite kosher here, but doesn't listen to her motherly instinct -- "Well, OKAY! For a little while!". NOW how do you think she's going to react when she learns WHY Veronica wanted to take Jellybean?
On the other hand, how would Mrs. Jones react if Betty admitted that the reason she called and asked to take Jellybean that evening was that she wanted to have an excuse to spend some time with Brad? Mrs. Jones was a teenager once too, and knowing as she does that Betty really DOES care about Jellybean, helps ameliorate the ethical crime here. How would YOU feel if it were your child?
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 01:26:25 AM
I wonder what would have happened if Jughead had used his Time Police Beanie to go back to that moment in the park where Betty and Veronica were talking, and used a camcorder to record Veronica's comment about "I'll stick to goldfish! They're less work!" and showed it to Mrs. Jones? I'm pretty sure Mrs. Jones would have gone ballistic on Veronica if she could have seen THAT.
OH MY GOD. THAT B**CH!!
::)
I doubt Mrs. Jones would have batted an eye at that. Veronica acknowledging at 16-18 she's not ready to be a mother and better suited to caring for goldfish is actually reasonable and I find it strange you thought that statement was alarming.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 01:26:25 AM
What was the proper ethical course of action for Jughead to take when he learned of the situation?
Uh, let Veronica bring Jellybean home like she and Mrs. Jones agreed upon? Furthermore, Betty just assumes that Veronica has male company and she and Jughead set her up with no proof. How can he go to Mrs. Jones before the fact when there is no evidence she's keeping company with someone else?
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 01:26:25 AMThe REAL crime here is that Veronica has deceived Mrs. Jones into believing that she's leaving her daughter with a responsible and loving caregiver.
She did, it just wasn't her.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 01:26:25 AM
How would YOU feel if it were your child?
Don't have any. Don't want any. I'll stick to goldfish myself. If you're a parent, can you weigh in?
Quote from: Thrillho on July 01, 2016, 02:41:53 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 01:26:25 AM
I wonder what would have happened if Jughead had used his Time Police Beanie to go back to that moment in the park where Betty and Veronica were talking, and used a camcorder to record Veronica's comment about "I'll stick to goldfish! They're less work!" and showed it to Mrs. Jones? I'm pretty sure Mrs. Jones would have gone ballistic on Veronica if she could have seen THAT.
OH MY GOD. THAT B**CH!!
::)
I doubt Mrs. Jones would have batted an eye at that. Veronica acknowledging at 16-18 she's not ready to be a mother and better suited to caring for goldfish is actually reasonable and I find it strange you thought that statement was alarming.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 01:26:25 AM
What was the proper ethical course of action for Jughead to take when he learned of the situation?
Uh, let Veronica bring Jellybean home like she and Mrs. Jones agreed upon? Furthermore, Betty just assumes that Veronica has male company and she and Jughead set her up with no proof. How can he go to Mrs. Jones before the fact when there is no evidence she's keeping company with someone else?
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 01:26:25 AMThe REAL crime here is that Veronica has deceived Mrs. Jones into believing that she's leaving her daughter with a responsible and loving caregiver.
She did, it just wasn't her.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 01:26:25 AM
How would YOU feel if it were your child?
Don't have any. Don't want any. I'll stick to goldfish myself. If you're a parent, can you weigh in?
No, what you said is pretty self-explanatory. No need to belabor the point any further.
I don't know what happened to the comments I posted on this thread yesterday, I should have checked it afterward I guess, but anyway. The ending doesn't bother me because Veronica did make the mean crack about the Joneses so it wasn't TOO much worse for Jughead to lie about her, and in this story Betty does seem close to Jellybean more than Veronica (and Veronica uses Jellybean even though she should be able to see Jellybean doesn't like her) so even though she's just as underhanded as Veronica here it's okay with me that she comes out ahead.
But I don't agree that Betty's ethical violations are usually treated more harshly than Veronica's, if anything it's the other way around especially in Dan Parent's stories, maybe because he likes Veronica more he holds her to a higher standard or something, I also don't see anything wrong with Veronica's goldfish remark and it's the EXACT kind of thing Jughead would say so I think Mrs. Jones would just laugh if she heard it. Besides Jughead's pulled so many uncalled for stunts on Veronica that Veronica has obviously never told her own parents about, I think he must appreciate that in a reciprocal way.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
Quote from: daren on June 30, 2016, 04:33:15 AM
Yeah, and even stranger that Al Hartley wrote it. I think that MUST be miscredited, I can't believe he would put that in there!
I wondered if it was him; it looked like his art. I'm not that surprised that he would give Veronica the bird. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he usually go out of his way to portray Reggie and Veronica negatively or find a way to punish them?
Al Hartley? Not from what I've seen, of course most writers of that era portrayed Reggie and Veronica very negatively but Al Hartley wasn't extra bad, the main writers George Gladir and Frank Doyle were much worse than him about it. Frank Doyle most of all, Al Hartley never portrayed Reggie as a racist or borderline sexual predator and Frank Doyle is the one who made Veronica an evil villain in the '60s. And George Gladir made them do some real crap, I just read a story where he had Reggie trying to spear a dolphin, lmao, because he wanted to catch something fishing. Actually some of their dirty rotten evil stories were funny and I'm glad Fank Doyle made Veronica a bad girl just because I like villains even if he took it too far, but yeah, Al Hartley was tame by comparison, I think only Joe Edwards and maybe Bob Bolling wrote them more mildly than him out of that era of writers.
Quote from: daren on July 01, 2016, 05:41:53 AM
I don't know what happened to the comments I posted on this thread yesterday, I should have checked it afterward I guess, but anyway. The ending doesn't bother me because Veronica did make the mean crack about the Joneses so it wasn't TOO much worse for Jughead to lie about her, and in this story Betty does seem close to Jellybean more than Veronica (and Veronica uses Jellybean even though she should be able to see Jellybean doesn't like her) so even though she's just as underhanded as Veronica here it's okay with me that she comes out ahead.
But I don't agree that Betty's ethical violations are usually treated more harshly than Veronica's, if anything it's the other way around especially in Dan Parent's stories, maybe because he likes Veronica more he holds her to a higher standard or something, I also don't see anything wrong with Veronica's goldfish remark and it's the EXACT kind of thing Jughead would say so I think Mrs. Jones would just laugh if she heard it. Besides Jughead's pulled so many uncalled for stunts on Veronica that Veronica has obviously never told her own parents about, I think he must appreciate that in a reciprocal way.
If she were made aware of everything that happened in this story, I think Mrs. Jones would agree that Veronica is better suited to taking care of a goldfish than she is to taking care of Jellybean. I don't think Mrs. Jones has any particular proprietary feelings about the goldfish, though. If Veronica fails to take care of her goldfish, well then, she just flushes it down the toilet and buys a new one, the same way she does with most things she tires of. You may say that's a ridiculous analogy, but let's bear in mind who it was that made the analogy in the first place.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 06:34:03 AM
I think Mrs. Jones would agree that Veronica is better suited to taking care of a goldfish than she is to taking care of Jellybean. I don't think Mrs. Jones has any particular proprietary feelings about the goldfish, though.
Mrs. Jones let Veronica take care of Jellybean here and in other stories and Veronica never shows that trust to be misplaced, if Jellybean's mother doesn't know then who does, besides like I said it's just what Jughead (and most teenagers) would probably say, but just because you think you don't want kids of your own doesn't mean you can't take good care of someone else's for a few hours. (I see you edited your response so I'm editing mine; no I don't think Mrs. Jones would get upset that Veronica used Jellybean to meet a hot guy because Ronnie never mistreated Jellybean apart from making her take part in this silly ploy, but that's no different from things Jughead has done with his sister. And may I remind you again, Mrs. Jones probably has some idea of how tolerant the Lodges are of her son so she'd have some patience if only for that.
Quote
If Veronica fails to take care of her goldfish, well then, she just flushes it down the toilet and buys a new one, the same way she does with most things she tires of.
Well if failing to take care of pets disqualifies you as a baby sitter I guess Jughead shouldn't take care of Jellybean either, did you ever see the story where he ate the pet caged bird Archie gave him? I can't think of a story where Veronica killed a pet but if that goldfish is the only thing to eat when Jughead gets hungry it's swum its last lap. :)
Quote from: daren on July 01, 2016, 06:48:02 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 06:34:03 AM
I think Mrs. Jones would agree that Veronica is better suited to taking care of a goldfish than she is to taking care of Jellybean. I don't think Mrs. Jones has any particular proprietary feelings about the goldfish, though.
Mrs. Jones let Veronica take care of Jellybean here and in other stories and Veronica never shows that trust to be misplaced, if Jellybean's mother doesn't know then who does, besides like I said it's just what Jughead (and most teenagers) would probably say, but just because you think you don't want kids of your own doesn't mean you can't take good care of someone else's for a few hours. (I see you edited your response so I'm editing mine; no I don't think Mrs. Jones would get upset that Veronica used Jellybean to meet a hot guy because Ronnie never mistreated Jellybean apart from making her take part in this silly ploy, but that's no different from things Jughead has done with his sister. And may I remind you again, Mrs. Jones probably has some idea of how tolerant the Lodges are of her son so she'd have some patience if only for that.
Quote
If Veronica fails to take care of her goldfish, well then, she just flushes it down the toilet and buys a new one, the same way she does with most things she tires of.
Well if failing to take care of pets disqualifies you as a baby sitter I guess Jughead shouldn't take care of Jellybean either, did you ever see the story where he ate the pet caged bird Archie gave him? I can't think of a story where Veronica killed a pet but if that goldfish is the only thing to eat when Jughead gets hungry it's swum its last lap. :)
But you can't take into account other stories that came AFTER this story, whether you consider there's any continuity there or not. Either you treat the story as standalone, or as having taken place before the others, where she becomes friends with Jellybean. Veronica really doesn't show any concern for Jellybean in THIS story. She doesn't mistreat her, but at the same time, how do we even know she's paying attention to her? Jellybean is just a prop here, so Veronica can meet the male nanny. The effect of her goldfish remark is to indicate she couldn't be bothered to attend to the more complicated needs of a tiny human. I don't think she would have made it in front of Mrs. Jones, at least not after she'd gotten the idea to use Jellybean to spend time with Brad. Nor do I think if she'd said that prior to asking to take Jellybean, that Mrs. Jones would have let her. In Veronica's phone call to Mrs. Jones, Mrs. Jones already seems hesitant, as if she senses something's not quite right. If she'd heard that remark of Veronica's, I think her reply would have been more along the lines of "Well, you're certainly welcome to drop by and visit Jellybean whenever you'd like. Just let me know."
The real irony is that all of this skulking around and being less than forthcoming with Mrs. Jones was completely unnecessary. How about "Hi, Mrs. Jones, this is Betty. Yesterday when I took Jellybean down to Pickens Park, we met a nice boy named Brad. He's studying to be a pediatrician, but in the meantime he's earning money by hiring himself out as a male nanny. He gave me his business card. I wonder if I could invite him over to meet you, and he could spend a little time with Jellybean and me. I'm sure he could teach me a lot about pediatric emergencies, and he'd make an excellent substitute babysitter in case you ever needed one and I wasn't available, if you approve of him." How could she say no to that? Of course, if Veronica made the same call, it might seem like she was trying to cut Betty out of a job. It does make for a dull B&V story, though.
Quote from: daren on July 01, 2016, 05:41:53 AM
But I don't agree that Betty's ethical violations are usually treated more harshly than Veronica's, if anything it's the other way around especially in Dan Parent's stories, maybe because he likes Veronica more he holds her to a higher standard or something, I also don't see anything wrong with Veronica's goldfish remark and it's the EXACT kind of thing Jughead would say so I think Mrs. Jones would just laugh if she heard it. Besides Jughead's pulled so many uncalled for stunts on Veronica that Veronica has obviously never told her own parents about, I think he must appreciate that in a reciprocal way.
I agree that in modern stories, Betty doing something underhanded isn't really addressed, but if someone can find me an example, I'll shut my mouth. :-X Likewise with Jughead, he sets people up for self-indulgent reasons, and I know as a reader, we are supposed to cheer for him and find him clever. I remember one story where Veronica tells Jughead she will either invite Jughead or Reggie to her party, so Jughead sets up Reggie to get beat up by Moose immediately as Reggie enters the story.
Quote from: daren on July 01, 2016, 05:57:31 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
Quote from: daren on June 30, 2016, 04:33:15 AM
Yeah, and even stranger that Al Hartley wrote it. I think that MUST be miscredited, I can't believe he would put that in there!
I wondered if it was him; it looked like his art. I'm not that surprised that he would give Veronica the bird. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he usually go out of his way to portray Reggie and Veronica negatively or find a way to punish them?
Al Hartley? Not from what I've seen, of course most writers of that era portrayed Reggie and Veronica very negatively but Al Hartley wasn't extra bad, the main writers George Gladir and Frank Doyle were much worse than him about it. Frank Doyle most of all, Al Hartley never portrayed Reggie as a racist or borderline sexual predator and Frank Doyle is the one who made Veronica an evil villain in the '60s. And George Gladir made them do some real crap, I just read a story where he had Reggie trying to spear a dolphin, lmao, because he wanted to catch something fishing. Actually some of their dirty rotten evil stories were funny and I'm glad Fank Doyle made Veronica a bad girl just because I like villains even if he took it too far, but yeah, Al Hartley was tame by comparison, I think only Joe Edwards and maybe Bob Bolling wrote them more mildly than him out of that era of writers.
I just remember Al Hartley wrote a story where Veronica and Reggie were evil Germans and Betty, Archie, and Jughead were the good Americans in a WWI story. He also wrote the Spire Christian Comics were Reggie date raped a girl. That made me think he might not like them much.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 07:38:08 AM
The effect of her goldfish remark is to indicate she couldn't be bothered to attend to the more complicated needs of a tiny human.
Her goldfish remark was in response to Betty, "I can't wait to be a mother one day!" She can wait on being a mother, that's all that statement meant. Not wanting children at 16-18 is not a character flaw.
Quote from: Thrillho on July 01, 2016, 12:55:47 PM
Her goldfish remark was in response to Betty, "I can't wait to be a mother one day!" She can wait on being a mother, that's all that statement meant. Not wanting children at 16-18 is not a character flaw.
Even Jellybean understood
exactly what Veronica meant. Note that out of the entire story, these are the
only three panels where we can see her face where Jellybean appears unhappy or anxious. In the rest of the panels where we can see her face she's smiling, but in all those other panels, there's someone else around to protect her from Veronica. And there's no doubt exactly what Jellybean thinks of her. She clings to her mother as if to plead, "Please don't leave me alone with her!" Some children may be naturally shy or apprehensive that way, but clearly Jellybean isn't one of them. She recognizes Betty, Jughead, and even BRAD as people she can trust to care about her, but not Veronica.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/goldfish-are-less-work.796/preview/)(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/oh-no-not-her-again.797/preview/)(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/a-bit-of-a-crisis.798/preview/)
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 07:38:08 AM
But you can't take into account other stories that came AFTER this story, whether you consider there's any continuity there or not. Either you treat the story as standalone, or as having taken place before the others, where she becomes friends with Jellybean.
I'm not counting continuity from any single story here, I thought you might be so I mentioned other stories just in case. Veronica just tells some lies to get some time with a hot babysitter, she doesn't harm Jellybean especially since as Thrillho pointed out she makes sure Brad is there to help. The only really bad thing she does is telling a mean lie about the Joneses (a lie Betty and Jughead couldn't hear so it's not like their payback was really justified as far as they knew, only from our Gods eye view) and ignoring the fact that Jellybean doesn't want to go with her, although Jellybean hardly shows it, just a few expressions and grabbing Mrs. Jones once so maybe I can't even blame Veronica TOO much for that.
Quote
Veronica really doesn't show any concern for Jellybean in THIS story. She doesn't mistreat her, but at the same time, how do we even know she's paying attention to her?
We have no reason to think she's not, besides she hired Brad to pay attention to Jellybean.
Quote
Jellybean is just a prop here, so Veronica can meet the male nanny.
Again so what, this is what Jughead would do with Jellybean if he wanted to meet some babysitter whose family owns an all you can eat restaurant, he HAS used her to get things in other stories.
QuoteThe effect of her goldfish remark is to indicate she couldn't be bothered to attend to the more complicated needs of a tiny human.
She said she doesn't want to have children of her own because it would be too much work, sensible enough, that's not the same as saying you won't take care of any kid ever.Quote
I don't think she would have made it in front of Mrs. Jones, at least not after she'd gotten the idea to use Jellybean to spend time with Brad. Nor do I think if she'd said that prior to asking to take Jellybean, that Mrs. Jones would have let her. In Veronica's phone call to Mrs. Jones, Mrs. Jones already seems hesitant, as if she senses something's not quite right.
No Mrs. Jones might not let her take Jellybean in that case because then she'd know Veronica was probably lying about why she wanted to borrow her and Mrs. Jones is already suspicious because Veronica's fake excuse is stupid, if she knew the real set up Veronica had planned she probably wouldn't mind because Jellybean would be in good hands, and since Veronica has done her son so many favors in spite of Ronnie and the rest of the Lodge household putting up with so much from him and still Ronnie usually never asks him or the Jones family for ANY payback, I think Mrs. Jones would be happy to do her this one favor. :)
But as you point out Ronnie chooses unecessary skulking around instead.Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 02:36:02 PM
Even Jellybean understood exactly what Veronica meant. Note that out of the entire story, these are the only three panels where we can see her face where Jellybean appears unhappy or anxious. In the rest of the panels where we can see her face she's smiling, but in all those other panels, there's someone else around to protect her from Veronica. And there's no doubt exactly what Jellybean thinks of her. She clings to her mother as if to plead, "Please don't leave me alone with her!" Some children may be naturally shy or apprehensive that way, but clearly Jellybean isn't one of them. She recognizes Betty, Jughead, and even BRAD as people she can trust to care about her, but not Veronica.
Toddlers arent the best judges of character, Jellybean doesn't like Veronica because of the goldfish remark, but Veronica was just tactless not insulting or showing some evil flaw. Like I said Jellybean doesn't show much reaction besides looking sour, if she was afraid to go with Veronica she'd be whining or screaming, so its not a big deal.
Quote from: Thrillho on July 01, 2016, 12:55:47 PM
Likewise with Jughead, he sets people up for self-indulgent reasons, and I know as a reader, we are supposed to cheer for him and find him clever. I remember one story where Veronica tells Jughead she will either invite Jughead or Reggie to her party, so Jughead sets up Reggie to get beat up by Moose immediately as Reggie enters the story.
Yeah if he did the things Veronica does here he probably wouldnt be punished as badly or criticized as much, hell even I wouldn't be mad at him, I hate to say it but he has charm that's like a get out of jail free card sometimes.
Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
I just remember Al Hartley wrote a story where Veronica and Reggie were evil Germans and Betty, Archie, and Jughead were the good Americans in a WWI story.
I don't see any wrong with Al making R and R German WWI villains, I think I read that story and it was no worse than the roles George Gladir and Frank Doyle gave them in their history spoofs. If it had been World War TWO that would be something else.
QuoteHe also wrote the Spire Christian Comics were Reggie date raped a girl. That made me think he might not like them much.
Okay I think I found the site that might have given you that idea. http://80pagegiant.blogspot.com/2011/09/archie-metaphors-sex-and-al-hartley.html (http://80pagegiant.blogspot.com/2011/09/archie-metaphors-sex-and-al-hartley.html) Are those the panels?
I also found the page they come from.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/panels-taken-out-of-context-by-sleazo-website-to-m.806/preview/)
In context it doesn't look like date rape. The Jughead oranges story is more like a metaphor for a guy who tells girls he loves them to get them to sleep with him, it doesn't work as analogy for rape. Besides it would make more sense for this sermon to tell girls "don't put out just because a guy says he loves you" (standard Christian warning) than to say "don't get date raped," there's no way a girl can avoid that unless she doesn't go on dates or doesn't kiss boys in cars, the other story on that site shows Al wasn't against girls going on dates and kissing boys in cars. It DOES look skeevy that Reggie's jumping on her with a sneering smile but he always drew Reggie sneering and always put characters in that pose when they're going after something they want, it probably symbolizes Reggie's a predator in the emotional not physical sense.
I just found another site where this story is discussed: http://www.toonzone.net/forums/threads/archie-goes-there-talkback.5224681/ (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/threads/archie-goes-there-talkback.5224681/)
and someone else says the same thing I'm saying, he also points out the lipstick marks on Reggie's face and the girl's appearance are probably meant to show it wasn't rape, a good point. (Then another guy says date rape victims don't always look raped and that kiss marks are just comics shorthand for sexual activity of any kind, well actually, they're just shorthand for CONSENSUAL making out, what comics would use them to convey rape? I mean you might see them in real life date rape and yeah, real victims don't always look victimized but in cartoons they do, the cartoonists tend to make sure we know what happened. Al Hartley's drawn rape victims in other stories and they did not just look bewildered with messy hair like this girl. Then this guy tries to claim Al mixed his metaphors (why?) and was "too stuck in the 50s to understand that date rape was what he was portraying", er, if he didn't understand he was portraying it then it's probably not what he was portraying. At this point I just can't take him seriously, for some reason he's hellbent on seeing the worst in Al no matter how weak his arguments are, same for the site that took those two panels out of context. I guess they're venting in revenge for all the Spire comics or something. :D )
I think the most important point the other guy makes is that Al Hartley wasn't the kind of guy who would show Reggie raping someone (if ACP even would have let him, unlikely). Frank Doyle is the one who came closest to writing Reggie as an in-context date rapist, Al's portrayals of him weren't that bad.
Quote from: daren on July 03, 2016, 04:41:11 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 02:36:02 PM
Even Jellybean understood exactly what Veronica meant. Note that out of the entire story, these are the only three panels where we can see her face where Jellybean appears unhappy or anxious. In the rest of the panels where we can see her face she's smiling, but in all those other panels, there's someone else around to protect her from Veronica. And there's no doubt exactly what Jellybean thinks of her. She clings to her mother as if to plead, "Please don't leave me alone with her!" Some children may be naturally shy or apprehensive that way, but clearly Jellybean isn't one of them. She recognizes Betty, Jughead, and even BRAD as people she can trust to care about her, but not Veronica.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/goldfish-are-less-work.796/preview/)(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/oh-no-not-her-again.797/preview/)(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/a-bit-of-a-crisis.798/preview/)
Toddlers arent the best judges of character, Jellybean doesn't like Veronica because of the goldfish remark, but Veronica was just tactless not insulting or showing some evil flaw. Like I said Jellybean doesn't show much reaction besides looking sour, if she was afraid to go with Veronica she'd be whining or screaming, so its not a big deal.
You give too little credit to toddlers as human beings. In THIS particular story, Jellybean turns out to be a better judge of character than her own mother, who really should have paid attention to what Jellybean was trying to tell her in that second panel above. So let's break down exactly what going on with Jellybean in this story, in each of the panels above. In the first panel, where Veronica makes the remark about children being too much trouble, so she'll stick to goldfish, she's not just talking about her own personal feelings about marriage and children. No, she's talking from her usual selfish perspective. She'd rather not acknowledge that children exist in her world and have needs -- there's one sitting right next to her when she makes that insensitive comment. Isn't that the kind of chore that we usually have servants for? The expression on Jellybean's face could be somewhere between "HEY! I'm sitting RIGHT HERE!!" and "
YOU'RE not my
FRIEND!" Jellybean doesn't really understand the analogy Veronica's making with her goldfish remark, but she does pick up on the visual and verbal clues that tell her all she needs to know. Jellybean appears to be a happy, sociable child in all those other panels where she's smiling, and the people around her like Jughead, Betty and even Brad respond to her, and engage with her. They smile back at her, or talk to her, or hold her or play with her. What Jellybean is responding to is Veronica's complete indifference to her presence -- Veronica doesn't interact with her and acknowledge her presence, she acts like she isn't even there. Jellybean isn't happy with her, because Veronica is not nice to her. Of course she doesn't mistreat her -- until she finds something that Jellybean is
useful to her for (i.e meeting Brad), she doesn't even bother with her at all. Jellybean is a good judge of Veronica's character IN THIS STORY. You don't agree with that because you and Thrillho, despite the fact that you're insisting that there's no continuity between this story and "Beach Blanket Babysitters" are paradoxically insisting that there IS continuity between Veronica's character in THIS story, where she shows us (and Jellybean, who's forming a first impression of Veronica in this story)
no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and OTHER stories where Veronica displays redeeming qualities that go into making up your composite mental picture of Veronica's character. So mentally, what you're saying is "That's ridiculous! We ALL know that Veronica isn't AS BAD AS SHE SEEMS in this story, so she can't possibly have done anything here to warrant making Jellybean not like her." Jellybean has NO composite picture of Veronica's character. All she knows of her in this first story where the two appear together is what's in THIS story, and NOTHING else. Not all the stuff YOU know about Veronica's character from other stories. All Jellybean knows is that Veronica has not been nice to her, she doesn't respond positively to her the same way other people do. Her feelings are hurt by this. If Veronica is paranoid that Jellybean's mind has been "poisoned against me" in "Beach Blanket Babysitters", she need look no further than that panel there. If she wants to know the name of the person who poisoned Jellybean's mind against her, her name was Veronica Lodge.
Moving on to the second panel above, once again, Jellybean is put off and alarmed (the look on her face is frantic) by Veronica's over-the-top phony performance as she rushes towards her, for the benefit of impressing Mrs. Jones with her affection for Jellybean (which doesn't exist in this story, she admitted to it with the goldfish remark). The expression on Mrs. Jones' face in that panel is bewildering, and the fact that she doesn't recognize Jellybean's silent cries for help, her pleas to keep Veronica away from her. Jellybean looks very scared by this sudden unexpected turn of events. The expression on Mrs. Jones' face is bizarre. She looks kind of blissed-out on medication or something, especially when you take into account the expressions on Mrs. Jones' face during her phone conversation with Veronica -- doubt and concern, that something doesn't seem quite right here about this situation. But I guess you have to chalk it up to the fact that there's no way to explain Mrs. Jones' lapse in parental judgment here logically, in letting Veronica take Jellybean anyway, despite what she both seemed to suspect, and
should have confirmed for her by Jellybean's reaction to Veronica's appearance. It's simply something that has to happen for the sake of the plot in this story. Were it not for the fact that the story has to continue to its conclusion, Mrs. Jones should be listening to her parental instinct and coming to the conclusion that Veronica is an irresponsible teenager (not a responsible and caring babysitter like Betty). As an aside, Betty's lapse in ethical judgment in this story can be put down to (as most of her infrequent lapses in good judgment can) the way that her competition with Veronica sometimes causes her to use poor judgment -- in this case, seeing Veronica's display of hubba-hubba goo-goo eyes when she spots Brad causes Betty to lose her better sense (knowing that once again, it looks like Veronica is going to try to grab Brad before Betty can even have a chance with him), and not to think things through. Her conscience usually tells her better, but in this case, she's a little too weakened by her attraction to Brad (with whom she otherwise seems to have a good deal in common) to pay attention to it. But I digress. Really, what this story comes down to is not the overall quality of Veronica's character, as composited from what you and I and Thrillho know about her from reading other stories. This is one of those stories where she's in her selfish "It's ALL about ME!" moods, and unfortunately, there's no balance here where she shows both positive and negative sides of her character. It's pretty much a wash, with
none of her more redeeming traits on display in this story. The reason that's important here, is that's ALL she's showing of herself to JELLYBEAN, it's all that forms Jellybean's impression of Veronica in THIS story. Jellybean doesn't LIKE her, and why
should she? Veronica doesn't do a single thing to MAKE Jellybean like her in this story, and she doesn't even TRY. She barely interacts with Jellybean at all, and the entirety of that in this story is shown in JUST those three panels above. Veronica has several stories like this, but she gets away with a lot because boys will give her a pass on her actual behavior due to her beauty, her wealth, and how impressive she looks to them in her expensive clothes. None of those things mean a thing to Jellybean. She's only impressed with people who are NICE to her. It doesn't matter that Veronica never actually mistreats her. That's completely beside the point. The only time she
actually speaks to Jellybean in this story is in that second panel above, where she puts on a badly-disguised phony performance of niceness, and Jellybean isn't fooled by it for a second. Veronica isn't even actually talking TO Jellybean, she's talking AT her -- solely for the benefit of Mrs. Jones.
The third panel has the only time that Veronica and Jellybean are actually in physical contact with each other, and it's clear that Jellybean isn't too happy about being held by her. Note that in the other panels where Veronica and Jellybean are together before Brad arrives, Jellybean is ALONE on the floor, playing BY HERSELF, and again
not interacting with Veronica at all -- Veronica sits a discreet distance away from her on the couch, not even in physical proximity to Jellybean, well outside the boundaries of Jellybean's personal space. In these panels, we can't see Jellybean's face. So again, in this third panel where Veronica is actually holding Jellybean, she's simply using her as a prop, as if to convince
herself of the very lie that she's trying to sell to Brad over the phone -- "Oh look, Jellybean has her frowny-face on. It's a
crisis! I MUST get help from Brad!!"
So in conclusion, when Veronica says "I'll stick to goldfish! They're much less work!", she's NOT talking about how she's going to feel about the idea of motherhood when she's say, 25 years old, and possibly more mature and accepting of responsibility. There's NO possible way she can know that. Veronica is speaking solely about how she feels about responsibility RIGHT NOW, at age 16. She couldn't be bothered with it. She's got money, so she doesn't NEED to bother with it. It's an admission that she knows that she's irresponsible, but she just doesn't care. THAT's why it should have/would have been a bad thing to say in front of Mrs. Jones, before she was about to release her child to Veronica's responsibility. Betty's comments about motherhood also reflect how she feels right now, at 16. She may not exactly be ready for the responsibilities of motherhood, but she's already preparing herself, learning about how to be a good care provider for children like Jellybean, and Jellybean clearly appreciates that quality in Betty, as she appreciates the obvious love and concern that Jughead shows to her.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 03, 2016, 06:50:41 AM
You don't agree with that because you and Thrillho, despite the fact that you're insisting that there's no continuity between this story and "Beach Blanket Babysitters" are paradoxically insisting that there IS continuity between Veronica's character in THIS story, where she shows us (and Jellybean, who's forming a first impression of Veronica in this story) no redeeming qualities whatsoever, and OTHER stories where Veronica displays redeeming qualities that go into making up your composite mental picture of Veronica's character.
Saying an Archie story has continuity with
the events of one story isn't the same as saying it has continuity with
characteristics repeated in many stories. Thrillho and I only denied that
one story was supposed to be a sequel to another, the dates don't match up, they read well that way so I can see why it'd be your headcanon but headcanon is not canon. This is why I said earlier "I'm not counting continuity from any
single story here." But characteristics that have been shown in MANY stories (like the fact that Veronica has almost never been shown to be mean or iresponsible with children, in fact the opposite) do count. Are you really suggesting we should look at the characters as total blanks in this story with no memory of their repeat characteristics, thats silly. And then why are you saying things like "If Veronica fails to take care of her goldfish, well then, she just flushes it down the toilet and buys a new one, the same way she does with most things she tires of" and "No, she's talking from her usual selfish perspective. She'd rather not acknowledge that children exist in her world and have needs -- there's one sitting right next to her when she makes that insensitive comment. Isn't that the kind of chore that we usually have servants for?" Those are ideas
you formed from other stories than these.
QuoteSo mentally, what you're saying is "That's ridiculous! We ALL know that Veronica isn't AS BAD AS SHE SEEMS in this story, so she can't possibly have done anything here to warrant making Jellybean not like her."
I didnt say Veronica can't possibly have done anything to warrant making Jellybean not like her, I said Jellybean disliked her just because of the goldfish comment which is not proof of Veronica being mean or irresponsible, if Veronica did anything else to justify Jellybean not liking her it's in your head not in the story.
QuoteJellybean has NO composite picture of Veronica's character. All she knows of her in this first story where the two appear together is what's in THIS story, and NOTHING else. Not all the stuff YOU know about Veronica's character from other stories.
Well yeah in fact less than that, she's judging Veronica on one comment, that's why I pointed out toddlers are not the best judges of character. Adults know it doesn't make a person bad just to say "I'll stick to goldfish instead of having children, they're less work." If you were able to tell good people from bad when you were two years old you were a lot smarter than me, at that age I thought almost any stranger was scary as hell and my doctor must be a mad scientist because he wanted to stick a needle in me. The only reason Veronica shouldn't have taken Jellybean out is because it made Jellybean unhappy, that's enough reason not to make a kid do something unneeded even if their reasons for being unhappy are based on poor judgment, as they VERY often are in toddlers. but like I said Jellybean didnt show her feelings much about it.
Oh and if saying you don't want children (now or in the future) because bringing them up is too much work makes you rotten and irresponsible then that might include me. :)
QuoteAs an aside, Betty's lapse in ethical judgment in this story can be put down to (as most of her infrequent lapses in good judgment can) the way that her competition with Veronica sometimes causes her to use poor judgment -- in this case, seeing Veronica's display of hubba-hubba goo-goo eyes when she spots Brad causes Betty to lose her better sense (knowing that once again, it looks like Veronica is going to try to grab Brad before Betty can even have a chance with him)
What was that thing you said earlier?
Veronica is expected to be imperfect, so the severity of any ethical violations she commits is reduced, while Betty, on the other hand IS expected to be perfect, so the severity of any ethical violations SHE commits are treated that much more harshly.Wow I did not think you would prove your own statement wrong so soon. So almost anything Betty does wrong is because Veronica manipulated her into doing it? Oh and then this:
QuoteVeronica has several stories like this, but she gets away with a lot because boys will give her a pass on her actual behavior due to her beauty, her wealth, and how impressive she looks to them in her expensive clothes.
You keep repeating this near groundless statement, the fact is Veronica hardly gets away with anything because her wealth and expensive clothes are partly what CAUSE a lot of people to magnify anything bad she does out of proportion, you being the prime example, I even remember seeing you said once you couldn't feel sympathy for Veronica because she's too rich. Well I guess I understand that, if I had read Archie comics growing up I would have found it hard to sympathize with Betty, Archie and Jughead because as middle class kids their families had far more luxury and money than mine and I would have wondered what they were whining about when they called themselves "poor" comparing themselves to Veronica. A teenagers family having more money than yours isn't a good reason to not give them sympathy though so I would have warmed up to them as I matured. Oh and name me these stories where boys excuse Ronnie because she's rich, I see far more where they bring up her money when they talk crap about her.
Seriously I don't know what it is with this hate-on you've got for Veronica, you so many times love to read the worst into her. Or you keep insisting she's at fault for every bad thing that happens or you say she deserves some punishment when she doesn't, for instance, when you thought that "Beach Blanket Babysitters" was a sequel to "Oh Nanny Boy" you crowed about Jellybean teaching her a lesson in "Babysitters" because of Veronica's actions in "Oh Nanny Boy" but Veronica was already punished in "Oh Nanny Boy," she doesn't need to be punished AGAIN for the same thing, but in your mind somehow she does. I wonder why, it can't be because she's mean because you dont have these issues with even meaner characters like Cheryl or Reggie and "they're only minor characters" cant be the reason because they're not so much more minor than Ronnie, especialy Reggie, that it would explain why you never talk this way about them and constantly do about Ronnie, it can't be just because she's rich either because their families are too. Frankly you remind me a little of those guys in my other post who talked about Al Hartley like he was the antichrist. :)
If there's NO continuity, then the Veronica in this story is NOT the same as the Veronica in any other story, Daren. No matter how much you'd like to believe it. Because just the idea of having SOME continuity of character is there does NOT mean that that character cannot or does not ever change. You're saying that whether there is continuity between the stories or not, the characters remain unvarying, they have consistency and never ever change, not even in context with the events of the story that surrounds them, and that's complete BS. Where there is conflict between the behavior of a character in one story and the behavior of the same character in another story, the character in relation to the events of the story being considered takes precedence over any other characteristics that character might have in another story, because the characters are allowed to change. The nature of continuity of character in Archie Comics is this -- the aggregate of common characteristics of any character is subordinate to any specific characteristic, which is always subordinate to the needs of the plot of the particular story under consideration. That's why there can be 12 different stories where Veronica's character experiences changes in exactly the same way, 12 different variations on "A Christmas Carol" where she starts out Scrooge-y and ends up a changed person.
On the other hand, sometimes she can just behave badly, and NOT learn a lesson in the story, where in another similar situation in a similar story she DOES learn a lesson about the exact same thing. The lesson that she learned in the second instance (or the specific aspect of her character that was changed for the better) does not retroactively apply to her character in the story where she didn't learn a lesson, but just behaved badly. The character is always subordinate to the actual story under consideration, and what that story is about. In other words, the aggregate of common characteristics from other stories only applies contextually to what they DIDN'T tell or show in the story itself. Information in the individual story supersedes that of the composite characteristics, unless the common characteristics are merely supporting what the story is showing or telling you. If they appear to be contradictory, the immediate story under consideration takes precedence. The characteristics can change for the specific story, but it might fall into a pattern for a particular story trope, like "Veronica behaves selfishly" or "Betty shows poor judgment because of her desperation to compete with Veronica". Well, you might say why isn't it "Veronica shows poor judgment because of her desperation" or "Betty behaves selfishly" instead? Don't ask me, I didn't write them. In most stories, Betty is the underdog. Even in the stories where Betty does something stupid, she's rarely portrayed as entirely unsympathetic, she's usually shown with some redeeming aspects to give it some perspective. Veronica doesn't always get that in a story. Sometimes she's just bad, and no contrasting redeeming qualities are shown to balance that. Blame the writers. And you know what, now that I think on it a little more, the trope about Veronica that's being reiterated here in this story isn't so much "Veronica behaves selfishly" or "Veronica is spoiled", although it overlaps that trope somewhat. It's a little more specific than that, and it doesn't just apply to how Veronica relates to children. It's more like "Veronica has poor interpersonal communication skills" or "Veronica has poor social skills" or "Veronica is not a people person". That shows up over and over in Veronica stories, whether it's how she treats her cousin Marcy that idolizes her, or Betty in some stories, or Archie in some stories, or some random character written into a one-off story. There are many stories that show she's capable of being charming and likable when she wants to be (and before Jughead shows up here, she's almost got Brad charmed), but she's just not motivated to be charming to Jellybean or Marcy. And then in the "Sisters" story, she IS motivated to be charming and have good interpersonal communication skills with Jellybean. Like I said -- I don't write them. But most of the B&V stories are about showing how the two girls contrast and are opposite in some way, so here it's that Betty has good interpersonal communication skills with children and Veronica doesn't. They're alike in the way that their competition with each other and weakness for cute guys causes them both to try to take advantage of Jellybean (although that in itself isn't hurting Jellybean) to get close to Brad, but Betty and Jellybean actually DO have a relationship and a friendship here, and Veronica and Jellybean do NOT, and that doesn't change for either of them in this story. What's hurting Jellybean as far as Veronica is concerned is that Veronica won't bother with Jellybean for herself, only to get close to Brad. So she's trying to deceive both Jellybean and Brad into thinking she likes children, when she doesn't. That isn't the case with Betty, who genuinely LIKES Jellybean, so she's not deceiving Jellybean OR Brad into thinking that she does, solely for the purpose of meeting him. Betty would have been deceiving Mrs. Jones though, if Veronica hadn't beaten her to it first. So there's the ethical difference -- Veronica is attempting to deceive 3 people, while Betty is really only deceiving 1 person (or would have been, if she had succeeded in asking Mrs. Jones first). Although, who knows? Since Mrs. Jones told Betty that Veronica had already taken Jellybean, we don't get to read what she would have said to Mrs. Jones if Jellybean had been home. Maybe she would have gone into an explanation of Brad, but we don't get that far, so we don't know. We also can't presume to know that Betty would have called Brad and told him the same lie that Veronica did about having a crisis that required his help. We just don't know that. We can probably presume that she would have called him I guess, but what she would have said is complete speculation. There's simply no proof that she would have lied to him. She might have called and told him that she was sitting with Jellybean that night, and asked him if he could come over to teach her something about pediatric emergencies, so she could become a better babysitter. There's no reason to think "Yeah right, that's a load of bull, what does Betty care about pediatric emergencies?" even if it DOES serve the purpose of getting Brad to spend some time with her.
On the other hand if there IS continuity of character, then not only IS this the same Veronica as exists in the other story, but she's allowed to change her behavior over time, and to be mean, cold, aloof and irresponsible sometimes, and then to learn a lesson and become more responsible. In another story, but not here. In this story she doesn't do that. She doesn't do anything nice at all. There's absolutely no proof in this story that she cares one iota about Jellybean, except to use her for her own selfish purposes. It's not anything negative in particular that she does to Jellybean, it's the lack of anything positive, the fact that at no point in this story does she ever acknowledge that Jellybean is any different to her than a goldfish, by her treatment of her. There is a distinct lack of evidence in this story that Veronica thinks of Jellybean or treats Jellybean as a person, that's what I mean. That's entirely an assumption on your part, and the goldfish comment, in which she acknowledges her own lack of responsibility or lack of any desire to take on responsibility (which is what a babysitter is really for) is saying something about that lack of any positive interaction between Veronica and Jellybean in this story. That makes Veronica irresponsible as someone who is supposed be the guardian of a small child. That's not to say she'd mistreat a goldfish she owned either, but is she really that concerned about the goldfish? I don't think so, because the preference for goldfish over human children is based on "less work" for Veronica, and that's exactly the qualifications she brings with her in her role as Jellybean's babysitter -- she does nothing, she makes no effort. She simply sits far away from Jellybean on the couch, and leaves Jellybean to her own devices. No different than a goldfish she might own. Dan Parent might as well have drawn a goldfish bowl around Jellybean sitting in the middle of the floor by herself. If the goldfish remark is simply some topical humor, a bit of commentary about Veronica's future plans regarding having children of her own, and otherwise has no bearing on the rest of the story, and specifically the part of the plot that requires Veronica to babysit Jellybean, then the removal of that panel should result in a story that reads exactly the same. However, if you remove that panel, then very little about the story makes sense, at least as far as Jellybean not liking Veronica goes.
In "Beach Blanket Babysitters" Veronica's behavior is different. It starts out with her behaving towards Jellybean much as she does in the earlier story. She just wants to nap on the beach, and leave Jellybean to play by herself, as long as Jellybean is quiet and doesn't disturb her nap. Once again in that story, she's just not even paying attention to Jellybean. Jellybean could be choking on a lego block, as long as she did so quietly. All of Jellybean's pranks and teasing of Veronica is Jellybean trying to get some attention from her, and she's testing her a little to see what kind of attention that will be. Will Veronica lose her temper, and be upset with her, or will she show patience and her better nature by putting up with it? The beginning of the change in her relationship with Jellybean is signaled in the story when Veronica says "See? Now we're getting along." At least she's showing that she's paying attention to Jellybean now. As the teasing goes on, Veronica does start paying more attention to Jellybean, and wins Jellybean's approval as a good sport by enduring her pranks. By the end of the story, Veronica has changed. As a result of the fact that she's changed her attitude towards Jellybean, Jellybean becomes Veronica's defender against her own brother. Jellybean doesn't just change her mind arbitrarily, it's in response to the changed relationship between Veronica and Jellybean.
I'm saying that the characters do not exist as some immutable prototypes that never ever change any of their characteristics. They are capable of doing bad things and good things, sometimes in two different stories -- which makes them seem like two different people, and sometimes in the same story, where they start out one way, and can change by the end. Veronica is capable of being a good person, but she doesn't always ACT like a good person. That is the difference. It's not some Veronica "hate campaign". I dislike Veronica's treatment of Jellybean in the first story, and like her behavior towards Jellybean in the later stories.
Quote from: daren on July 03, 2016, 05:09:59 AM
[/size]QuoteHe also wrote the Spire Christian Comics were Reggie date raped a girl. That made me think he might not like them much.
Okay I think I found the site that might have given you that idea. http://80pagegiant.blogspot.com/2011/09/archie-metaphors-sex-and-al-hartley.html (http://80pagegiant.blogspot.com/2011/09/archie-metaphors-sex-and-al-hartley.html) Are those the panels?
I also found the page they come from.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/panels-taken-out-of-context-by-sleazo-website-to-m.806/preview/)
In context it doesn't look like date rape. The Jughead oranges story is more like a metaphor for a guy who tells girls he loves them to get them to sleep with him, it doesn't work as analogy for rape. Besides it would make more sense for this sermon to tell girls "don't put out just because a guy says he loves you" (standard Christian warning) than to say "don't get date raped," there's no way a girl can avoid that unless she doesn't go on dates or doesn't kiss boys in cars, the other story on that site shows Al wasn't against girls going on dates and kissing boys in cars. It DOES look skeevy that Reggie's jumping on her with a sneering smile but he always drew Reggie sneering and always put characters in that pose when they're going after something they want, it probably symbolizes Reggie's a predator in the emotional not physical sense.
I just found another site where this story is discussed: http://www.toonzone.net/forums/threads/archie-goes-there-talkback.5224681/ (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/threads/archie-goes-there-talkback.5224681/)
and someone else says the same thing I'm saying, he also points out the lipstick marks on Reggie's face and the girl's appearance are probably meant to show it wasn't rape, a good point. (Then another guy says date rape victims don't always look raped and that kiss marks are just comics shorthand for sexual activity of any kind, well actually, they're just shorthand for CONSENSUAL making out, what comics would use them to convey rape? I mean you might see them in real life date rape and yeah, real victims don't always look victimized but in cartoons they do, the cartoonists tend to make sure we know what happened. Al Hartley's drawn rape victims in other stories and they did not just look bewildered with messy hair like this girl. Then this guy tries to claim Al mixed his metaphors (why?) and was "too stuck in the 50s to understand that date rape was what he was portraying", er, if he didn't understand he was portraying it then it's probably not what he was portraying. At this point I just can't take him seriously, for some reason he's hellbent on seeing the worst in Al no matter how weak his arguments are, same for the site that took those two panels out of context. I guess they're venting in revenge for all the Spire comics or something. :D )
I think the most important point the other guy makes is that Al Hartley wasn't the kind of guy who would show Reggie raping someone (if ACP even would have let him, unlikely). Frank Doyle is the one who came closest to writing Reggie as an in-context date rapist, Al's portrayals of him weren't that bad.
Yeah, that was the story I am referring to, and I know Al Hartley probably didn't intend to make Reggie a rapist but that's definitely what it looks like, and at the very least it looks like sexual assault as the girl never looks willing. I don't want to get too into here but I agree with that poster you're talking about even if Al Hartley didn't intend to portray sexual assault, that's exactly what he did. It's just like the Game of Thrones controversy where the audience interpreted a scene as rape though the creators denied it but honestly where is the ambivalence if the woman in question is constantly saying no, trying to fight him off, and then crying for him to stop? The girl in question looks terrified that Reggie is coming at her and the other panel we see her in she is upset.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 04, 2016, 03:41:39 AM
In "Beach Blanket Babysitters" Veronica's behavior is different. It starts out with her behaving towards Jellybean much as she does in the earlier story. She just wants to nap on the beach, and leave Jellybean to play by herself, as long as Jellybean is quiet and doesn't disturb her nap. Once again in that story, she's just not even paying attention to Jellybean. Jellybean could be choking on a lego block, as long as she did so quietly.
How dare she do her own thing as opposed to watching the child her friend (who left to go swimming) is being paid to babysit. What the hell is wrong with her? Instead of enjoying herself at the beach she should clearly be watching any and every child at the beach like a hawk. How heartless can she be?
Quote from: Thrillho on July 06, 2016, 01:27:28 AM
Quote from: daren on July 03, 2016, 05:09:59 AM
QuoteHe also wrote the Spire Christian Comics were Reggie date raped a girl. That made me think he might not like them much.
Okay I think I found the site that might have given you that idea. http://80pagegiant.blogspot.com/2011/09/archie-metaphors-sex-and-al-hartley.html (http://80pagegiant.blogspot.com/2011/09/archie-metaphors-sex-and-al-hartley.html) Are those the panels?
I also found the page they come from.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/panels-taken-out-of-context-by-sleazo-website-to-m.806/preview/)
In context it doesn't look like date rape. The Jughead oranges story is more like a metaphor for a guy who tells girls he loves them to get them to sleep with him, it doesn't work as analogy for rape. Besides it would make more sense for this sermon to tell girls "don't put out just because a guy says he loves you" (standard Christian warning) than to say "don't get date raped," there's no way a girl can avoid that unless she doesn't go on dates or doesn't kiss boys in cars, the other story on that site shows Al wasn't against girls going on dates and kissing boys in cars. It DOES look skeevy that Reggie's jumping on her with a sneering smile but he always drew Reggie sneering and always put characters in that pose when they're going after something they want, it probably symbolizes Reggie's a predator in the emotional not physical sense.
I just found another site where this story is discussed: http://www.toonzone.net/forums/threads/archie-goes-there-talkback.5224681/ (http://www.toonzone.net/forums/threads/archie-goes-there-talkback.5224681/)
and someone else says the same thing I'm saying, he also points out the lipstick marks on Reggie's face and the girl's appearance are probably meant to show it wasn't rape, a good point. (Then another guy says date rape victims don't always look raped and that kiss marks are just comics shorthand for sexual activity of any kind, well actually, they're just shorthand for CONSENSUAL making out, what comics would use them to convey rape? I mean you might see them in real life date rape and yeah, real victims don't always look victimized but in cartoons they do, the cartoonists tend to make sure we know what happened. Al Hartley's drawn rape victims in other stories and they did not just look bewildered with messy hair like this girl. Then this guy tries to claim Al mixed his metaphors (why?) and was "too stuck in the 50s to understand that date rape was what he was portraying", er, if he didn't understand he was portraying it then it's probably not what he was portraying. At this point I just can't take him seriously, for some reason he's hellbent on seeing the worst in Al no matter how weak his arguments are, same for the site that took those two panels out of context. I guess they're venting in revenge for all the Spire comics or something. :D )
I think the most important point the other guy makes is that Al Hartley wasn't the kind of guy who would show Reggie raping someone (if ACP even would have let him, unlikely). Frank Doyle is the one who came closest to writing Reggie as an in-context date rapist, Al's portrayals of him weren't that bad.
Yeah, that was the story I am referring to, and I know Al Hartley probably didn't intend to make Reggie a rapist but that's definitely what it looks like, and at the very least it looks like sexual assault as the girl never looks willing. I don't want to get too into here but I agree with that poster you're talking about even if Al Hartley didn't intend to portray sexual assault, that's exactly what he did. It's just like the Game of Thrones controversy where the audience interpreted a scene as rape though the creators denied it but honestly where is the ambivalence if the woman in question is constantly saying no, trying to fight him off, and then crying for him to stop? The girl in question looks terrified that Reggie is coming at her and the other panel we see her in she is upset.
I can see what you mean, I think back then he never thought anyone would believe an Archie main five character would rape anyone, rape probably just was not a possibility for a member of the Archies in that more innocent time and I don't think ACP would have allowed him to draw that, I think he relied on everyone knowing that and interpreting it as Reggie just being greedy and selfish and like I said predatory in the emotional sense. I didn't think she looked upset in the last panel comparing her to the rape victims Al Hartley's drawn in other stories. I guess we have to agree to disagree, I admit
Al Hartley should have been more careful about how he drew this scene, it does LOOK reminisent of rape, he should have known some people would see it that way.I think the scene you describe from Game of Thrones is a little different, we don't see this girl saying no, telling Reggie to stop or fighting him off and we don't see what happens after he leaps at her. Dammit Al why couldn't you have been clearer >:(
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 04, 2016, 03:41:39 AM
If there's NO continuity, then the Veronica in this story is NOT the same as the Veronica in any other story, Daren. No matter how much you'd like to believe it. Because just the idea of having SOME continuity of character is there does NOT mean that that character cannot or does not ever change. You're saying that whether there is continuity between the stories or not, the characters remain unvarying, they have consistency and never ever change, not even in context with the events of the story that surrounds them, and that's complete BS.
I never said that, point to where I said characters can't change within a story or act differently from one story to the next, I only said the characters have recurring characteristics (and Ronnie's are so diverse she could act like almost anything in any story) and that you were wrong that "Beach Blanket Babysitters" is a direct continuation of "Oh Nanny Boy," remember when you said:
QuoteAh, but this isn't the first Veronica/Jellybean story, it's the second (or possibly even the third). In the first one, Veronica doesn't like Jellybean because she thinks that she's just like a little Jughead. Nevertheless, it doesn't prevent Veronica from trying to exploit Jellybean's innate cuteness when she tries to babysit her as an excuse to get an "in" with a hunky male nanny that she meets in the park. In that one, Jughead finds out what's going on, and with Jellybean as an accomplice, teaches Veronica a well-deserved lesson.
The above story is kind of sweet, because after Jellybean senses that Veronica has learned her lesson, she only torments her a little bit for good measure --"
Then,
QuoteI assumed in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" that it was referencing the first story where Veronica basically uses Jellybean for selfish reasons to cast herself in a favorable light as a caring person who loves children (when the opposite is the true case, in reality, in that first story), and that Jellybean was somehow remembering that.
and
QuoteIf Veronica is paranoid that Jellybean's mind has been "poisoned against me" in "Beach Blanket Babysitters", she need look no further than that panel there. If she wants to know the name of the person who poisoned Jellybean's mind against her, her name was Veronica Lodge.
But you're wrong, there's no event continuity between the two because Archie stories always reset to the beginning of the timeline at the end unless something in the story shows the writer meant it to continue from another story, these don't have that.
QuoteOn the other hand, sometimes she can just behave badly, and NOT learn(snip)
De paragraphs are your friend, I know my own writing style is crap but that wall of text was hard on my brain.
QuoteThe characteristics can change for the specific story, but it might fall into a pattern for a particular story trope, like "Veronica behaves selfishly" or "Betty shows poor judgment because of her desperation to compete with Veronica". Well, you might say why isn't it "Veronica shows poor judgment because of her desperation" or "Betty behaves selfishly" instead? Don't ask me, I didn't write them. In most stories, Betty is the underdog. Even in the stories where Betty does something stupid, she's rarely portrayed as entirely unsympathetic, she's usually shown with some redeeming aspects to give it some perspective. Veronica doesn't always get that in a story. Sometimes she's just bad, and no contrasting redeeming qualities are shown to balance that. Blame the writers.
I don't 'blame' the writers, the fact that characters like Veronica and Reggie sometimes do bad and have true flaws with no sanitizing justifications is what makes them great characters with human dimension, in Ronnie's case a pioneering one too because heroines rarely get hard faults the way heroes do, I have no problems with these stories or most others where Ronnie acts up, I have a problem with you saying that Ronnie doing a few mildly bad things and saying she doesn't want kids in "Nanny Boy" means we should assume she's rotten and deserves someone to go ballistic on her. There are stories where Veronica acts nice, stories where she acts rotten and stories where shes in between, "Nanny Boy" is one of her in between stories, NOT one of her rotten stories.
And again too with your 'Betty only acts badly because Veronica makes her do it.' "Betty shows poor judgment because of her desperation to compete with Veronica"? 'Desperation' is something you feel in more dire straits than just Betty wanting to beat out Veronica.
QuoteOn the other hand if there IS continuity of character, then not only IS this the same Veronica as exists in the other story, but she's allowed to change her behavior over time, and to be mean, cold, aloof and irresponsible sometimes, and then to learn a lesson and become more responsible.
She's not the same Veronica in either the sense of having experienced the events of "Nanny Boy" or in having her attitude towards Jellybean being the same, in "Nanny Boy" she ignores Jellybean because she's indifferent, in "Babysitters" she ignores her because shes bothered by Jellybean's hostility.
Quote
In another story, but not here. In this story she doesn't do that. She doesn't do anything nice at all. There's absolutely no proof in this story that she cares one iota about Jellybean, except to use her for her own selfish purposes. It's not anything negative in particular that she does to Jellybean, it's the lack of anything positive, the fact that at no point in this story does she ever acknowledge that Jellybean is any different to her than a goldfish, by her treatment of her. There is a distinct lack of evidence in this story that Veronica thinks of Jellybean or treats Jellybean as a person, that's what I mean. That's entirely an assumption on your part, and the goldfish comment, in which she acknowledges her own lack of responsibility or lack of any desire to take on responsibility (which is what a babysitter is really for) is saying something about that lack of any positive interaction between Veronica and Jellybean in this story. That makes Veronica irresponsible as someone who is supposed be the guardian of a small child. That's not to say she'd mistreat a goldfish she owned either, but is she really that concerned about the goldfish? I don't think so, because the preference for goldfish over human children is based on "less work" for Veronica, and that's exactly the qualifications she brings with her in her role as Jellybean's babysitter -- she does nothing, she makes no effort. She simply sits far away from Jellybean on the couch, and leaves Jellybean to her own devices. No different than a goldfish she might own. Dan Parent might as well have drawn a goldfish bowl around Jellybean sitting in the middle of the floor by herself. If the goldfish remark is simply some topical humor, a bit of commentary about Veronica's future plans regarding having children of her own, and otherwise has no bearing on the rest of the story, and specifically the part of the plot that requires Veronica to babysit Jellybean, then the removal of that panel should result in a story that reads exactly the same. However, if you remove that panel, then very little about the story makes sense, at least as far as Jellybean not liking Veronica goes.
Again. Veronica hired a babysitter in that story. She made sure Jellybean was taken care of and not harmed, the fact that she didn't do any bad to Jellybean combined with the fact that she was humiliated at the end should be the end of it, just "not doing anything positive" isn't enough reason for her to be punished further. It's your own assumption that she doesn't think of Jellybean as a person just because she's not into kids in this story. And the fact that the goldfish remark is what made Jellybean dislike Veronica is what I've been saying, Jellybean is a toddler, she thinks everyone should like to take care of toddlers, not see it as 'work', I wouldve felt the same way when I was two but I sure dont now.
Quote
In "Beach Blanket Babysitters" Veronica's behavior is different. It starts out with her behaving towards Jellybean much as she does in the earlier story. She just wants to nap on the beach, and leave Jellybean to play by herself, as long as Jellybean is quiet and doesn't disturb her nap. Once again in that story, she's just not even paying attention to Jellybean. Jellybean could be choking on a lego block, as long as she did so quietly. But then by the end of the story, Veronica has changed.
Veronica ignoring Jellybean in "Babysitters" is the best thing she can do under the circumstances, Jellybean here has an attitude problem towards Veronica (which began long before the nap), furthering contact with her might make it worse. Besides, Betty's supposed to be the one paying attention, she brought Jellybean along without telling Veronica first so Jellybean is her responsibility. Veronica says she's going to nap right before Betty says she's going for a dip too so the understanding must be that Bettys going to keep her eye on Jellybean while she's dipping, she can't expect Veronica to do it when Veronica had just said she wanted to sleep, if you think Veronica's irresponsible in "Nanny Boy" for hiring a babysitter to look after Jellybean instead of doing it herself (and even then Ronnie was always in the room with Jellybean) then you must think Bettys very irresponsible in "Babysitters" because she doesn't hire anyone, she pressures her friend into helping at the last minute even though that friend is trying to ignore Jellybean for good reason and then Betty neglects to watch Jellybean long enough for her to completely cover Veronica with sand which is a long time. Jellybean could be choking on a lego block yknow. I kind of don't blame you since the story is sort of set up to make us feel Betty's actions aren't so bad, I wouldn't point it out except to show how silly youre being for insisting Ronnie is scum for not playing with Jellybean in "Nanny Boy." Or do you think its okay for Betty to neglect Jellybean because she likes her and that makes up for it.
Yeah it's a cute ending to the story because it shows Veronica's niceness and patience not because she got some experience in toughing out crappy situations that arent her fault. The main one who should learn a lesson in this story is Jughead but of course Jughead doesn't actually learn a lesson or do anything nice in this story, even though he was mildly punished that's not enough according to you right? So you'll be pulling for him to learn a lesson from Veronica in a future story based on the events here right?
Yeah and in November I'll be the new president.
QuoteIt's not some Veronica "hate campaign."
No I don't think you have a "hate campaign" against Veronica, a campaign is a conscious decision and I doubt you're aware of how negative your attitude towards her is or how many criticisms you make of her, you criticize her more than all other characters put together times two. Even I don't criticize Archie that much.
Quote from: daren on July 06, 2016, 02:10:19 AM
I have a problem with you saying that Ronnie doing a few mildly bad things and saying she doesn't want kids in "Nanny Boy" means we should assume she's rotten and deserves someone to go ballistic on her.
Who went ballistic on her? She got embarrassed, and got revealed as the big phony that she was (in THAT story). Big whoop. Nobody laid a finger on her. It's not like Jughead faked evidence of her kidnapping Jellybean and turned her into the police. All he did was ruin her chance with one guy.
Seems like you're hypersensitive here to any possible damage done to Veronica, and insensitive to any damage Veronica may do to anyone else. Basically you maintain that she deserves to get away with using Jellybean to convince Brad that she cares about children (which she doesn't), and that she deserves to get hooked up with him. You even try to imply that she's calling Brad for JELLYBEAN'S benefit. If that's what you believe, there's no point in further discussion.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 06, 2016, 03:32:17 AM
Quote from: daren on July 06, 2016, 02:10:19 AM
I have a problem with you saying that Ronnie doing a few mildly bad things and saying she doesn't want kids in "Nanny Boy" means we should assume she's rotten and deserves someone to go ballistic on her.
Who went ballistic on her? She got embarrassed, and got revealed as the big phony that she was (in THAT story). Big whoop. Nobody laid a finger on her. It's not like Jughead faked evidence of her kidnapping Jellybean and turned her into the police. All he did was ruin her chance with one guy.
Im talking about how you implied Mrs. Jones would be justified if she went ballistic on her.
Quote
Seems like you're hypersensitive here to any possible damage done to Veronica, and insensitive to any damage Veronica may do to anyone else. Basically you maintain that she deserves to get away with using Jellybean to convince Brad that she cares about children (which she doesn't), and that she deserves to get hooked up with him. You even try to imply that she's calling Brad for JELLYBEAN'S benefit. If that's what you believe, there's no point in further discussion.
No I didn't, I never said she deserved to get away with it and I even said it was okay with me that Betty came out ahead, and I said she had a babysitter there to watch Jellybean not that she called him specifically for that, he can serve more than one purpose you know, and the fact that you think the way I respond to your constant negativty towards Veronica is hypersensitivity shows how unaware you are of all your remarks about her, let me refresh your mind, do you remember that you actually criticized her once for liking Kevin so much but not being the one to save his life at the end of The Married Life? I remember reading that on the old board and it was an old thread so I didn't answer it but I couldn't believe my eyes, I guess Veronica adoring him is supposed to give her psychic powers to sense a gunman suddenly appearing at a party out of her range of vision. I could name many more but I'd like to know how you answer that.
Quote from: daren on July 06, 2016, 03:44:18 AM
let me refresh your mind, do you remember that you actually criticized her once for liking Kevin so much but not being the one to save his life at the end of The Married Life? I remember reading that on the old board and it was an old thread so I didn't answer it but I couldn't believe my eyes, I guess Veronica adoring him is supposed to give her psychic powers to sense a gunman suddenly appearing at a party out of her range of vision. I could name many more but I'd like to know how you answer that.
I said it in the context of, if you look at Kevin's own title, it's
ARCHIE'S PAL KEVIN KELLER, which is like... wtf? Archie's barely even IN it. No, if the title were accurate, it should be VERONICA'S
title-stealing PAL KEVIN KELLER. It's Veronica who claims she's his BFF (or he's her
other BFF, or something like that). Of course it's "Archie's Pal" because the other title isn't very sell-able. How do I know he was out of her range of vision -- she's his campaign manager, shouldn't she be right there with him? But really, even though it's Archie who has to die, him doing so by saving Kevin doesn't have the gravitas it would if Archie had died saving Veronica or Betty (because it doesn't matter who the gunman was
trying to hit), or if Veronica had died saving Kevin (or vice-versa), because honestly, Archie and Kevin just are not that close.
So you see me heaping scorn on Veronica, when all I'm really doing is criticizing the writing of the story. You're just hypersensitive to anything someone says about Veronica, even though she's often written in such a way as to portray her in the worst possible light. Take it up with the writers. Note that while YOU'VE started threads about Archie being an a-hole or whatever, I've never started a thread about Veronica that encourages people to heap scorn on her. The writers do more of that than is necessary already. Or used to, whatever. I'm not sure if new classic Archie stories are pretty much headed for the last roundup here, but it looks that way. It's as if I'm supposed to read every story where she's written in a negative light and say
it isn't so, she's really NICE deep down, even though that story says otherwise.
Whew! For a moment there, I thought you guys were gonna be bosom buddies! Thank God THAT'S not happening! :2funny:
Quote from: daren on July 06, 2016, 03:44:18 AM
Im talking about how you implied Mrs. Jones would be justified if she went ballistic on her.
I'm sorry, Daren. I didn't mean to imply that.
I meant to be a little more definitive in stating that as a fact, and If I was unclear on that, let me restate it differently.
Mrs. Jones would be perfectly justified on going ballistic on Veronica for deceiving her into thinking that she cared about Jellybean, when in reality all she wanted to do was use her to get a date. Perfectly justified.
Quote from: daren on July 06, 2016, 01:47:46 AM
]I think the scene you describe from Game of Thrones is a little different, we don't see this girl saying no, telling Reggie to stop or fighting him off and we don't see what happens after he leaps at her. Dammit Al why couldn't you have been clearer >:(
Ah, but you see, an absence of a no does not equal consent. That's why activists are trying to drive the point home with affirmative consent, only yes means yes.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 06, 2016, 04:03:51 AMSo you see me heaping scorn on Veronica, when all I'm really doing is criticizing the writing of the story. You're just hypersensitive to anything someone says about Veronica, even though she's often written in such a way as to portray her in the worst possible light.
I don't care that people will dislike/hate Veronica or judge her harshly but these two stories don't even rank as any of Veronica's worst moments, especially not "Beach Blanket Babysitters" where you know, she didn't actually do anything to warrant Jellybean being mean to her.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 06, 2016, 04:03:51 AM
Note that while YOU'VE started threads about Archie being an a-hole or whatever, I've never started a thread about Veronica that encourages people to heap scorn on her.
That's because there already was/is a Worst of Veronica thread, and pretty much a negative thread for every character. Why should Archie be left out of the fun? ;)
Quote from: Thrillho on July 06, 2016, 06:15:57 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 06, 2016, 04:03:51 AM
Note that while YOU'VE started threads about Archie being an a-hole or whatever, I've never started a thread about Veronica that encourages people to heap scorn on her.
That's because there already was/is a Worst of Veronica thread, and pretty much a negative thread for every character. Why should Archie be left out of the fun? ;)
Archie certainly deserves it as much or more than the rest ...
Quote from: Thrillho on July 06, 2016, 06:15:57 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 06, 2016, 04:03:51 AMSo you see me heaping scorn on Veronica, when all I'm really doing is criticizing the writing of the story. You're just hypersensitive to anything someone says about Veronica, even though she's often written in such a way as to portray her in the worst possible light.
I don't care that people will dislike/hate Veronica or judge her harshly but these two stories don't even rank as any of Veronica's worst moments, especially not "Beach Blanket Babysitters" where you know, she didn't actually do anything to warrant Jellybean being mean to her.
Where did I say that they were among the worst examples of Veronica's behavior? I can think of many worse examples. Just because "Nanny Boy" isn't among the worst, doesn't mean that it automatically should be held up as an example of the opposite. It's true that in "Beach Blanket Babysitters", Veronica doesn't actually DO anything to warrant Jellybean being mean to her. But children like people to pay attention to them, and will often do things to GET attention. The other thing that would help to explain that somewhat is
Jellybean's continuity of character from previous stories with Veronica, like "Nanny Boy". Jellybean's character in that story doesn't contradict her character (at the beginning of the story, before she changes her mind) in BBB, it reiterates it, as Jellybean not having a good relationship with Veronica, just as the Veronica/Jughead feud is reiterated in certain stories, including NB, HS and BBB. The "continuity of character" thing has less to do with when the stories first appeared than it does with how it agrees or disagrees with the story currently under examination. To the extent that aspects of Veronica's character or Jellybean's character in other stories agree with the one you're looking at right now, to the degree that those details reiterate, reinforce, echo, help to explain or contextualize the same characters' behavior in the story now in question, it applies.
To the extent that it disagrees with or contradicts the characters' behavior in the story under examination, you have to reject it. What the story
tells you is paramount -- including things that the story specifically
omits telling you, which would otherwise tend to give a more balanced picture of one character, or two characters' relationship to each other. If there's contradictory behavior between a character in one story and another, then continuity of character from the contradictory story doesn't apply. For example, in "Hey, Sister" Veronica's behavior towards Jellybean doesn't align with or help us understand her behavior towards Jellybean in BBB, it contradicts it. In HS, she's getting somewhat obsessed with Jellybean, and treats her like her own little sister. In BBB, she's not doing that at all (at the beginning of the story). Then later in the story, she TRIES, and makes an EFFORT to build a relationship with Jellybean -- something she did NOT do in NB, where she regards children as too much work (by contrast to goldfish). I prefer these type of Veronica stories, where she's shown as being less one-dimensional than she is in others like NB, and has redeeming character traits. When those redeeming character traits aren't shown in the story, then they don't apply in that story.
If continuity of character applies to the Jughead/Veronica feud in all three stories, then why don't I just accept the premise that Jughead has "poisoned" Jellybean's mind towards Veronica in BBB? Simple, because what the story
tells you about Jellybean contradicts that directly -- it shows you that Jellybean is capable of making up her own mind about whether or not she likes people, and is not just Jughead's little minion. Did she just somehow magically gain the power of free will the moment she announces to Jughead "NO! Veronica is my FRIEND!"? No, she always had it. She's still a child, but also a human being who has free will. She made up her own mind about how she felt about Veronica in NB, and she does the same in BBB -- and she has the ability to
change her mind as well, when Veronica's behavior towards her changes for the better. It's far easier for me to accept that premise than it is to accept the idea that Jughead (who has never shown much ability to manipulate people psychologically to do things against their will, like say, Trula Twyst has) is even capable of doing this, never mind that he's able to issue a complex series of instructions to Jellybean, a young child, in regards to how to go about tormenting Veronica at the beach, which she in turn is capable of following to the letter. Nor are we
shown any of that "mind poisoning" in the story. At best we can tell he's given her a plasic spider, and possibly suggested to Jellybean that she use it to pull a prank on Veronica. The rest of the stuff with Veronica deciding to take a nap and Jellybean throwing cold sand on her, and then burying her in the sand, doesn't seem reasonable to believe that Jughead can foresee or control. Jellybean's attitude towards Veronica in the story has a lot more to do with how Veronica treats her (even if it's just that Veronica ignores her, before Veronica makes an effort to be friends with her) than it has anything to do with Jughead, and Jellybean changing her mind to become Veronica's defender proves it. When she pulls those pranks on Veronica on the beach, it's because she wants some attention from Veronica, not because she's programmed to think of her as "the enemy". She doesn't have any idea that she's "being mean", because she's a child that doesn't have a fully-formed sense of right and wrong (but later in the story, we get the idea that she's beginning to develop that). She just doesn't like being ignored, she wants to interact with people. When Veronica shows her some positive attention, she decides she likes Veronica, and refuses to do those things any more, when she recognizes her as a friend. It's a really sweet story, and I like it a lot, both as a Veronica story and as a Jellybean story.
Quote from: Thrillho on July 06, 2016, 06:15:57 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 06, 2016, 04:03:51 AM
Note that while YOU'VE started threads about Archie being an a-hole or whatever, I've never started a thread about Veronica that encourages people to heap scorn on her.
That's because there already was/is a Worst of Veronica thread, and pretty much a negative thread for every character. Why should Archie be left out of the fun? ;)
Right. And
I didn't start that Worst of Veronica thread, or any other thread devoted to her behaving badly. But somehow when examples are posted of her behaving badly, I'm just supposed to shut up and not comment about it, because there are other stories where she doesn't behave badly. The fact that people overwhelming choose to post those stories where she behaves badly, as opposed to the ones where she doesn't, is hardly my fault. That's about all I have to say about it, except that there's usually a direct correlation between stories where Veronica behaves badly (and no redeeming qualities are shown) and she comes out the loser, and those where she shows the better aspects of her character and comes out the winner -- "Nanny Boy" versus "Beach Blanket Babysitters".
Quote from: Thrillho on July 06, 2016, 01:27:28 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 04, 2016, 03:41:39 AM
In "Beach Blanket Babysitters" Veronica's behavior is different. It starts out with her behaving towards Jellybean much as she does in the earlier story. She just wants to nap on the beach, and leave Jellybean to play by herself, as long as Jellybean is quiet and doesn't disturb her nap. Once again in that story, she's just not even paying attention to Jellybean. Jellybean could be choking on a lego block, as long as she did so quietly.
How dare she do her own thing as opposed to watching the child her friend (who left to go swimming) is being paid to babysit. What the hell is wrong with her? Instead of enjoying herself at the beach she should clearly be watching any and every child at the beach like a hawk. How heartless can she be?
That's one vote for the "choke on the lego block" option. How dare Jellybean interrupt Veronica's nap with such meaningless and annoying behavior? I don't know, most people might say the 16-year old should be more mature than the toddler, but... you never can tell. And of course, who's being paid makes all the difference in who should be mature. Because watching every child on the beach like a hawk isn't worth the money she isn't being paid to do so -- or watching one single child entrusted to her care,
which of course, is exactly the same thing. Or we can blame Betty, who should know better than to expect Veronica to be more responsible and mature than a toddler?
I take this to mean that were you walking along in the park, and happened to see a child sitting by herself, obviously choking on something, you'd do absolutely nothing, because it's not your problem. You chose wisely in avoiding having children.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 07, 2016, 11:13:51 AM
That's one vote for the "choke on the lego block" option. How dare Jellybean interrupt Veronica's nap with such meaningless and annoying behavior? I don't know, most people might say the 16-year old should be more mature than the toddler, but... you never can tell. And of course, who's being paid makes all the difference in who should be mature. Because watching every child on the beach like a hawk isn't worth the money she isn't being paid to do so -- or watching one single child entrusted to her care, which of course, is exactly the same thing. Or we can blame Betty, who should know better than to expect Veronica to be more responsible and mature than a toddler?
I take this to mean that were you walking along in the park, and happened to see a child sitting by herself, obviously choking on something, you'd do absolutely nothing, because it's not your problem. You chose wisely in avoiding having children.
Wow, you're way out of line. I can only imagine what you wrote before you edited. Seriously, my defending Veronica is not a personal attack on you so don't make it a personal issue. You know nothing about me.
Like daren said upthread, Betty was the one entrusted to Jellybean's care, Veronica didn't even know Jellybean would be coming with them and she shouldn't have had that responsibility foisted on her unexpectedly. So yes, if you want to blame anyone for Jellybean not having a minder, blame Betty, she knows Veronica is going to take a nap yet she goes for a swim anyway, even though she is the one who agreed to babysit Jellybean that day. If Betty is the one being paid or even just agreed to babysit without compensation, she is the one who has to follow through with her promise. Now if this was an emergency situation where Betty had to run off, I would fully expect Veronica to step up, but this wasn't it. Furthermore, there's no legos in this story for Jellybean to choke on so there was no risk of that happening.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 07, 2016, 03:10:16 AM
Where did I say that they were among the worst examples of Veronica's behavior? I can think of many worse examples. Just because "Nanny Boy" isn't among the worst, doesn't mean that it automatically should be held up as an example of the opposite.
Well you did write blocks of texts condemning Veronica, and alluding to her actions leading to Jellybean's death, so it's not a stretch to infer you think this is the worst she has been.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 07, 2016, 03:10:16 AM
Right. And I didn't start that Worst of Veronica thread, or any other thread devoted to her behaving badly. But somehow when examples are posted of her behaving badly, I'm just supposed to shut up and not comment about it, because there are other stories where she doesn't behave badly. The fact that people overwhelming choose to post those stories where she behaves badly, as opposed to the ones where she doesn't, is hardly my fault. That's about all I have to say about it, except that there's usually a direct correlation between stories where Veronica behaves badly (and no redeeming qualities are shown) and she comes out the loser, and those where she shows the better aspects of her character and comes out the winner -- "Nanny Boy" versus "Beach Blanket Babysitters".
No one said you can't express your opinion but
you start these debates when posters are not looking for one and you can't be upset when someone responds or disagrees with you.
Quote from: Thrillho on July 07, 2016, 12:58:30 PM
Like daren said upthread, Betty was the one entrusted to Jellybean's care, Veronica didn't even know Jellybean would be coming with them and she shouldn't have had that responsibility foisted on her unexpectedly. So yes, if you want to blame anyone for Jellybean not having a minder, blame Betty, she knows Veronica is going to take a nap yet she goes for a swim anyway, even though she is the one who agreed to babysit Jellybean that day. If Betty is the one being paid or even just agreed to babysit without compensation, she is the one who has to follow through with her promise. Now if this was an emergency situation where Betty had to run off, I would fully expect Veronica to step up, but this wasn't it. Furthermore, there's no legos in this story for Jellybean to choke on so there was no risk of that happening.
In hindsight, I can see where Betty made a fundamental error in judgment in choosing to ask her best friend to accompany her and Jellybean to the beach, and imagining that while at the beach she might still do a little swimming. I guess people sometimes do stupid things when they let themselves be influenced by friendship, and it was unreasonable of Betty to presume on that friendship and burden Veronica. Obviously she should have asked Brad. Or Midge, or Nancy, or Ethel, or one of those otherwise unnamed girls who walks through the foreground of the panels in those beach stories who she knows that also attends Riverdale High. Anyone but her best friend.
Jellybean's welfare in this situation is ultimately Betty's responsibility, and she's the one that's going to have to make explanations to Mrs. Jones if anything were to happen to her. Let's say, hypothetically, that while Betty is off swimming and Veronica is napping, Jellybean chose to wander off somewhere, and when Betty came back, she was nowhere to be found. (If Veronica doesn't take a nap, and instead stays awake and pays attention to what Jellybean is doing, then Veronica doesn't wake up buried up to her neck in sand. I think that's called irony.) Betty would probably be frantic when Jellybean was missing and Veronica couldn't tell her where she was. She'd probably go to the Beach Patrol office or lifeguards' office, and tell them to institute a search for the missing child. With luck, after several hours of seaching the crowded beach, they'd find her, but then Betty (being the honest type) has to explain to Mrs. Jones when she brings Jellybean home what happened that afternoon (it's possible that Mrs. Jones expected her back by dinnertime, and is herself very worried about what's happened).
BETTY: "Mrs. Jones, I am SO
sorry about what happened! Jellybean just wandered off and got lost, and was missing for several hours until one of the lifeguards finally located her. It's ALL MY FAULT! I'm so ashamed...! I... I left her with Veronica while I went to take a swim, and when I got back, Veronica had fallen asleep and didn't know where Jellybean had gone, and I was going out my mind with worry...! I'll never do that again!!"
MRS. JONES: "BETTY!! You left my daughter
all alone with
Veronica!!? WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?! And I
trusted you...!"
BETTY (she's crying now): "
Sob! OH, I feel just so AWFUL about it, Mrs. Jones!" (At this point, Betty isn't going to point out that Mrs. Jones did exactly the same thing in leaving her daughter with Veronica in "Nanny Boy".)
MRS. JONES: "Betty, I am
severely disappointed in you. I thought you were more mature and responsible, and had better judgment! I think you can understand that I won't be availing myself of your services as babysitter in the future. I have here the business card of a nice young man named Brad, who's studying to be a pediatrician, and who is working his way through school as a nanny, and I'll be using him as Jellybean's sitter from now on -- and I'm afraid if any other mothers ask me about you for babysitting references, I'll have to be honest with them and tell them how you let me down. I won't mention this to your parents, but I strongly suggest you go home and THINK about what you've done, and if you're the person I think you are, you'll tell them yourself. I know Veronica is your best friend, but your faith in her sense of responsibility is misplaced, and you should remember that in the future."
BETTY (still crying): "Sniff! Mrs. Jones, will I... never
see Jellybean again?"
MRS. JONES: "Betty, I can see that you're truly sorry, but
try to understand.
Of course you're welcome to visit with Jellybean anytime, and I think she'd be sad if you never came to see her again. I know Jellybean really likes you, and I know you like her. I... just can't leave Jellybean
alone with you any more. I'm
sorry, Betty, but that's the way it has to be. You'll understand someday, when you're a mother."
As the story ends, Betty goes home and has a deep sense of shame and remorse, and a reality check regarding her misplaced trust and mistakenly high opinion of Veronica's character, but she feels even worse about herself, and her friendship with Veronica is never quite the same after this stressful incident.
THE END.
Boy, THAT was a downer. ... Nah, I think it's funnier if Jellybean just buries Veronica up to her neck in sand.
Quote from: Thrillho on July 06, 2016, 06:15:57 PM
Quote from: daren on July 06, 2016, 01:47:46 AM
]I think the scene you describe from Game of Thrones is a little different, we don't see this girl saying no, telling Reggie to stop or fighting him off and we don't see what happens after he leaps at her. Dammit Al why couldn't you have been clearer >:(
Ah, but you see, an absence of a no does not equal consent. That's why activists are trying to drive the point home with affirmative consent, only yes means yes.
That's a good point, what I was trying to say was that we only see two panels so we miss the part that would tell us what happened for certain.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 06, 2016, 04:50:52 AM
Quote from: daren on July 06, 2016, 03:44:18 AM
Im talking about how you implied Mrs. Jones would be justified if she went ballistic on her.
I'm sorry, Daren. I didn't mean to imply that.
I meant to be a little more definitive in stating that as a fact, and If I was unclear on that, let me restate it differently. Mrs. Jones would be perfectly justified on going ballistic on Veronica for deceiving her into thinking that she cared about Jellybean, when in reality all she wanted to do was use her to get a date. Perfectly justified.
At least you admit you said something wrong. :)
This is a lot, I'm going to have to answer the rest of everything tomorrow if I don't just give up but Ill post one thing, the cover to the issue with Beach Blanket Babysitters which surprised me.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/coverofbeachblanketbabysittersstory.815/preview/)
Betty's meant to be irresponsible in this story a little.
Quote from: daren on July 08, 2016, 03:54:43 AM
Ill post one thing, the cover to the issue with Beach Blanket Babysitters which surprised me.
(https://www.archiefans.com/index.php?media/file/coverofbeachblanketbabysittersstory.815/preview/)
Betty's meant to be irresponsible in this story a little.
It's funny when Archie gets buried in the sand on the beach, and the same applies to Reggie. Why is it suddenly irresponsible when it happens to Veronica and a toddler instead of a teenager is doing the burying? When Archie or Reggie gets buried in the sand, it's usually left up to them to extricate themselves, but this story never implies that that's the case here with Veronica.
It's just a funny cover gag, and in the actual story Betty's not even there when Ronnie gets buried. Well, before she left to take a dip, she DID ask Ron "Can I trust you two together?" and Ronnie just said "Don't be long" instead of "NO! Don't LEAVE her here with me! I don't TRUST her!", which makes it kind of odd that Ronnie is relaxed enough to take a nap, for a girl that's so paranoid about a toddler that she thinks of as "This little troublemaker is out to get me!!" As soon she came back, Betty dug her out.
Seems to me that what's meant to be funny in this story is Ronnie's paranoia over the idea that she's convinced herself that Jughead has programmed Jellybean to do her bodily harm. Veronica's making those comments even in the beginning of the story, before anything has happened yet, and Jellybean is aware of her attitude towards her and doesn't like it, so it becomes sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Ultimately, it's Veronica showing Jellybean that she has the ability
to laugh at herself that puts an end to Jellybean's mischievous pranks and wins Jellybean over, and changes her opinion of Veronica. A little humility and humanity, and proving to Jellybean that she was sincere in her efforts to make friends with her -- not trying to buy her affection with gifts, that's all Jellybean needed to see in Veronica to like her.
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 08, 2016, 01:45:26 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on July 07, 2016, 12:58:30 PM
Like daren said upthread, Betty was the one entrusted to Jellybean's care, Veronica didn't even know Jellybean would be coming with them and she shouldn't have had that responsibility foisted on her unexpectedly. So yes, if you want to blame anyone for Jellybean not having a minder, blame Betty, she knows Veronica is going to take a nap yet she goes for a swim anyway, even though she is the one who agreed to babysit Jellybean that day. If Betty is the one being paid or even just agreed to babysit without compensation, she is the one who has to follow through with her promise. Now if this was an emergency situation where Betty had to run off, I would fully expect Veronica to step up, but this wasn't it. Furthermore, there's no legos in this story for Jellybean to choke on so there was no risk of that happening.
In hindsight, I can see where Betty made a fundamental error in judgment in choosing to ask her best friend to accompany her and Jellybean to the beach, and imagining that while at the beach she might still do a little swimming. I guess people sometimes do stupid things when they let themselves be influenced by friendship, and it was unreasonable of Betty to presume on that friendship and burden Veronica. Obviously she should have asked Brad. Or Midge, or Nancy, or Ethel, or one of those otherwise unnamed girls who walks through the foreground of the panels in those beach stories who she knows that also attends Riverdale High. Anyone but her best friend.
Babysitting isn't about what the sitter wants to do, it's about taking care of the child. I know because I babysat all through high school and college and I never purposefully ignored my charge for self-indulgent reasons. Betty cannot be upset Veronica didn't want to watch her when she didn't even tell Veronica in advance that Jellybean was joining them. Note that Veronica informs Betty first that she's taking a nap and Betty decides to leave anyway. That's when Betty should think, my swim can wait, or I can come to the beach another day when I don't have to watch Jellybean. Mrs. Jones hired Betty, when you hire someone for something you expect them to follow through not delegate the responsibilities to someone else, so yes if something happened to Jellybean while Veronica was napping and Betty was swimming all the blame would be on Betty. Mrs. Jones didn't hire Veronica to watch Jellybean
she hired Betty, she is paying Betty. If Betty wanted Veronica to do her a favor, she would actually need to ask Veronica if she is willing to watch her, and it would be unfair of Betty to expect Veronica to do her work for her and not offer to compensate her, it's not like Veronica is her intern.
Quote from: Thrillho on July 08, 2016, 05:50:23 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 08, 2016, 01:45:26 AM
Quote from: Thrillho on July 07, 2016, 12:58:30 PM
Like daren said upthread, Betty was the one entrusted to Jellybean's care, Veronica didn't even know Jellybean would be coming with them and she shouldn't have had that responsibility foisted on her unexpectedly. So yes, if you want to blame anyone for Jellybean not having a minder, blame Betty, she knows Veronica is going to take a nap yet she goes for a swim anyway, even though she is the one who agreed to babysit Jellybean that day. If Betty is the one being paid or even just agreed to babysit without compensation, she is the one who has to follow through with her promise. Now if this was an emergency situation where Betty had to run off, I would fully expect Veronica to step up, but this wasn't it. Furthermore, there's no legos in this story for Jellybean to choke on so there was no risk of that happening.
In hindsight, I can see where Betty made a fundamental error in judgment in choosing to ask her best friend to accompany her and Jellybean to the beach, and imagining that while at the beach she might still do a little swimming. I guess people sometimes do stupid things when they let themselves be influenced by friendship, and it was unreasonable of Betty to presume on that friendship and burden Veronica. Obviously she should have asked Brad. Or Midge, or Nancy, or Ethel, or one of those otherwise unnamed girls who walks through the foreground of the panels in those beach stories who she knows that also attends Riverdale High. Anyone but her best friend.
Babysitting isn't about what the sitter wants to do, it's about taking care of the child. I know because I babysat all through high school and college and I never purposefully ignored my charge for self-indulgent reasons. Betty cannot be upset Veronica didn't want to watch her when she didn't even tell Veronica in advance that Jellybean was joining them. Note that Veronica informs Betty first that she's taking a nap and Betty decides to leave anyway. That's when Betty should think, my swim can wait, or I can come to the beach another day when I don't have to watch Jellybean. Mrs. Jones hired Betty, when you hire someone for something you expect them to follow through not delegate the responsibilities to someone else, so yes if something happened to Jellybean while Veronica was napping and Betty was swimming all the blame would be on Betty. Mrs. Jones didn't hire Veronica to watch Jellybean she hired Betty, she is paying Betty. If Betty wanted Veronica to do her a favor, she would actually need to ask Veronica if she is willing to watch her, and it would be unfair of Betty to expect Veronica to do her work for her and not offer to compensate her, it's not like Veronica is her intern.
Like I said, Betty assumes certain things because she considers Veronica her best friend. They often do favors for each other, or team up to do something together. Maybe you think "if Betty has a job to do, then she shouldn't be at the beach trying to have fun with her friend at the same time", but Betty isn't viewing having Jellybean along as "work", she just sees it as an opportunity to have some fun with Jellybean, and her best friend at the same time. She doesn't really separate work from friends that way, and she doesn't see Jellybean as some kind of burden that prevents them all from having fun together. She can't quite get a handle on the fact that Veronica doesn't see it that way at all, because Betty is acting as if the three of them are actual sisters, which is indicative of the way Betty feels towards both of them.
Betty asked Ronnie "Can I trust you two together?" (the phrasing of which almost seems to invite a negative reply) and Veronica doesn't make much of a protest about it, she just says "Don't be long". That was her opportunity to declare "Hey, don't expect ME to do your job for you" or some other remark (polite or angry, whatever it takes to get the point across) indicating to Betty that she didn't want to be left alone with Jellybean, and I never said she wouldn't be justified in doing so, especially if she's convinced that Jellybean is "out to get" her. If she really believes that, she should be trying to convince Betty (who clearly dismisses that theory), or just letting Betty know she's not willing to do that favor for her, or if not -- she should just be paying attention to what Jellybean is doing, if for no other reason than looking out for herself.
Whether it's wrong for Betty to presume on the friendship or not, by not voicing a protest, Veronica tacitly agrees to allow her to leave Jellybean there. It's Veronica who suffers by not paying attention to Jellybean, and I can't blame that on Betty -- she's not being paid to watch Veronica. So Veronica needed to make up her mind here -- either let Betty know she didn't want her to go or tell her to take Jellybean with her - or, once Betty is gone, just pay attention.
All of this is beside the main point of the story, which to me, is that by forcing Veronica endure a situation where she has to deal with a child -- something which she finds awkward and uncomfortable -- something positive emerges, Veronica reaches out and forms an emotional bond, and she makes a new friend in Jellybean. She wins Jellybean's approval by putting up with her pranks with patience and good humor, rather than responding with anger or vindictiveness, and after trying to buy her affection with gifts, she finally shows that she's sincere in trying to make friends with her by showing Jellybean that she's capable of seeing the humor in laughing at herself. Jughead is dismayed to discover that "They've made her one of THEM!", and Veronica exits triumphant, which is a really nice ending.
I finally manage to get back on this board but I don't know if I want to put my entire reply yet since tomorrow I might have another connection problem and won't be able to answer anyone so I'm just answering one thing today, your comment to Thrillho
Quote
I take this to mean that were you walking along in the park, and happened to see a child sitting by herself, obviously choking on something, you'd do absolutely nothing, because it's not your problem. You chose wisely in avoiding having children.
Since I've been saying the same things as Thrillho and I also said I might not want kids this must apply to me too. :P Seriously, saying you don't want kids does not mean you're insensitive to them or a bad person, Thrillho seems like one of the nicest people on the board not deserving of that remark.
Now switching channels I just read (or reread, I don't remember) a Mark Waid interview about Jughead and Veronica from earlier this year, so to answer Thrillho's post three pages back wondering what he plans for them here's a piece of it.
CA: The idea of conflict between these characters seems like it's tough to pull off when you're dealing with a cast like this. Obviously, that's not a concern with Reggie, since he's always been a pretty die-hard jerk, but how do you approach it when it's someone like Veronica? Is it tough to show us what Archie sees in her and what Jughead sees in her at the same time? [/size][/color]MW: No, because Jughead cannot abide her. Nonetheless, he makes some peace with her specifically because he knows it'll hurt his best friend if he doesn't. The thornier relationship is between Betty and Veronica. You know, come to think of it, Betty and Jug are pals, but I don't know that any of the other character combos work in this world without Archie in the middle as cement.[/color]
[/size]CA: Speaking of, the biggest change for the characters came with Jughead, who gets an origin story involving his family's fall from wealth into bankruptcy. How did you approach that, and why? [/size][/size][/font]
[/size][/color]MW: It was all about the hat. I love Jughead. I love his one-step-removed perspective on everything in Riverdale. And I love the fact that he wears that stupid hat. The only way a high school kid can get away with wearing that hat each and every day is if he just doesn't care what other people think of him, not one bit — a rare emotional maturity for a teenager.[/size][/color]So I asked myself why Jughead would be that bulletproof emotionally, and the answer I hit upon — which also plays on the real secret of the Archie comic as I see it, which is that it's at heart a story about class warfare — was that Jughead had to learn the lesson young that it doesn't matter what people think about you as long as you're cool with yourself.[/size][/color]Showing that, as a boy, he was rich and thus surrounded by friends, and then was poor and most everyone turned away from him, cemented to Jug that if you're going to survive in this world, you have to develop a thick skin when it comes to the slings and arrows of other kids.[/size][/color]CA: Does that give Jughead's enmity towards Veronica a sharper, more personal edge?[/size][/color]MW: Oh, yes. I mean, in my mind, Jughead and Veronica have always been oil and water, and the only reason Veronica's body hasn't been found floating in the reservoir with Jughead's fingerprints on her throat is because Jughead can't really work up enough energy to care that much about anything other than food.[/size][/color][/size][/color]I don't know if I like the sound of this. Class warfare, wtf? I might make my reading hiatus on this book permanent. :P
I remember reading a story where Veronica tricked Jughead into eating a hot sauce and I think it's the only story I've read where V manages to win. Any others? Usually Jug gets the upper hand in the ending