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Character Ethics

Started by stylishnotebook, March 24, 2017, 09:30:27 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

DeCarlo Rules

#15
Quote from: stylishnotebook on March 30, 2017, 07:25:43 AM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on March 30, 2017, 06:17:07 AM
Apparently Ronnie's got a long memory for these beach shenanigans... (I guess she had to wait until she remembered to wear her actual swimsuit).
This time it looks like the inflatable will be punctured on porpoise:D



Ouch!  ;)  Very lovely cover find.Thank you all for your opinions on the last story. My ranking would be a little different.


1. Betty (best)

2. Veronica

3. Nurses


4. Archie

5. Reggie

6. Jughead


My answer to my second question would be Betty. Even though we don't agree on the morality of some characters, I appreciate the dissenting viewpoints that are expressed so well here.


It helps to explain your reasoning for why you ranked them that way.

You felt more sorry for Betty than you did for Veronica? Why? Does Betty suffer in some way in the story for her beliefs or actions?

Do you think Veronica gave herself too much credit for helping make the dolls, or felt like it was a big deal when she didn't really do all that much?  Why is Betty more ethical than Veronica, if Betty doesn't really need to make any extra effort to behave the way she does, but for Veronica, she needs to overcome a history of self-centerness to do something nice for no reward?

And how is Jughead worse than Reggie? True, he's disinclined to believe Betty's defense of Veronica for most of the story, but when she tells him about how Veronica spent the afternoon making dolls to donate to the hospital, he goes out to try to tell her what a nice thing she did, and is kind of startled to see her looking so sad (but he's still puzzled about why). Jughead appears confused and doesn't know what to do now, so rather than go after Veronica to tell her what he was originally going to, he decides he'd better not disturb her while she's obviously upset. When he tries to tell Reggie and Archie about it, Reggie just turns Veronica's sadness into a major burn (typical Reggie), to which Jughead replies "Yeah, probably!" but he doesn't sound too convinced to me. Archie says nothing at all, which is kind of weird when you consider that he's dating Veronica -- he doesn't take issue with Reggie's opinion, and he seems not the least bit curious and strangely unconcerned about her sadness (which, when you think about it, is pretty unusual for Veronica).

SAGG

#16



First of all, thank you for lifting this story from my album, stylishnotebook:)


One thing I think we're missing here is why the nurses would say what they said about Ronica's actions with making a portion of the dolls in the first place. Obviously there was a reason, which is because to them Ronica (and her family) were being perceived as being too cheap to give money to their hospital, even though Ronica thought about about having Mr. Lodge give something to it. The theme here in this story I believe, is misconception. Betty knows her buddy better than anyone, even apparently, Archie, which is why DR, he didn't come to Ronica's defense. Everyone but Betty thinks Ronica is quite frankly, selfish and snobby, even though they still generally like her. Her (and her family's) reputation is they're "better than us" because of their wealth. Witness the opening scene, where Ronica only seems concerned about her needs, with all of those packages she and her servent are carrying. Then, Ronica mildly complaining about the color of her new sportscar. How could any of you not think of her caring only about herself? The reputation of the Lodges is well known throughout Riverdale like this, rightly or wrongly.


The heartbreaking closing scene is quite telling, of course. I've never felt more sorry for Ronica. However, there's obviously hope because Ronica let it affect her. Being the type of person she is, she'll try to do better as a person, and with Betty's help, she'll make it stick to doing more for those less fortunate than her. Witness another story in my album, "A Wise Shopper", where Ronica secretly purchases a dress a little girl wanted. I'd like to imagine that this story takes place after "Poor Little Rich Girl", where she's trying. Meh...

DeCarlo Rules

#17
I believe Mr. Lodge actually has a good reputation as a philanthropist in Riverdale. There are innumerable stories where he donates to local charities or community causes. There are even several stories that spring to mind where Mr. Lodge alienates some of his hard-hearted business partners by doing the right thing in opposition to exploiting the profit-making angle of a situation. I'd agree that Veronica's reputation is that of a spoiled and self-centered heiress, though. With the nurses in this story, there's no getting around the fact that they're judging Betty and Veronica by two completely different standards. To them, Betty spending her time making handmade dolls to donate to the hospital is a laudable thing, but when they discover Veronica did the same, they're critical of her for not doing enough because of her wealth. They're predisposed to like Betty because of her personal charisma and admiring the work that went into crafting the dolls, but with the same dolls coming from Veronica, they're predisposed to think of them as a cheap token of philanthropy because of her spoiled reputation -- regardless of the fact that both girls put the same amount of time and effort into making the dolls.

The nurses also probably had no way of knowing whether Mr. Lodge was donating anything to the hospital without checking, since he donates to many charities without some big public show like showing up with a 6-foot faux check to hand over to the hospital administrator. He might already be donating to the hospital without Veronica even being aware of it, since he doesn't tell her everything he does. On the other hand, I'm sure he's not aware of every situation in Riverdale where he could help by donating, so it was a good thing for Veronica to think about bringing the hospital situation to his attention. The point in general that I'm making here is that it's hard for me to recall any stories where Mr. Lodge is portrayed as a hard-bitten profiteer who is only concerned with increasing his own personal wealth, regardless of the impact on others. Sure, he could probably be ruthless when it comes to business rivals, or we might see $$$ in his eyes upon the sudden realization of a money-making opportunity, but he never seems to take advantage of the personal leverage conferred by his wealth when it comes to the good of the community. When the nurse says "They didn't get rich by giving money away", she's just plain wrong about Mr. Lodge -- he's not hoarding his wealth like a miser.

You never know with Archie. In some stories he's critical of Veronica (like the previously-posted "Complete Circle"), but more often he defends her against someone else's criticism. There was just a recent story in JUGHEAD & ARCHIE digest where he takes Jughead's dare to disprove his contention that Veronica is an untrustworthy girlfriend ("Dear FAKE Diary"). In general though, he's more often less critical of her than he perhaps ought to be. You could argue that it's that same lack of any honest critical perspective about Veronica that's responsible for her often treating him so badly -- because she hasn't any respect for the fact that he doesn't stand up to her (and you could make the same case for Betty in relation to Archie, although in his case, respect is less the issue than obliviousness).

In this instance, Reggie's facile conclusion about Veronica's sadness is unwarranted, because she's not unapproachable to her friends to discover the true cause (although maybe Jughead isn't the best candidate in this particular case). They exhibit no concern for her whatsoever, and in this regard you might say Jughead is most culpable since he's got some inkling after listening to Betty -- but does it occur to him to ask her about it? Since Archie makes no effort to discover the truth, you'd think it doesn't matter to him and he couldn't care less. Reggie's flippant and callous dismissal of Veronica's feelings (which goes unchallenged) is what causes her to break into tears. To play devil's advocate for a moment, a less sympathetic and forgiving Old Testament judgment here about Veronica might be "As ye sow, so shall ye reap" -- if Veronica has a bad public reputation, whose fault is that?

stylishnotebook

Quote from: SAGG on March 30, 2017, 06:36:28 PM
First of all, thank you for lifting this story from my album, stylishnotebook:) 


No need to thank me! Like I said, thank you. I saw a lot of great stories in your gallery.  :)




stylishnotebook

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on March 30, 2017, 10:17:15 AM


It helps to explain your reasoning for why you ranked them that way.




6. Jughead sees Veronica crying, but doesn't do anything to help her or ask what's wrong, and mocks her at Reggie's prompting. I don't think he was trying to respect her privacy. In other Archie stories, people who see their friends crying either ask them what's wrong right away, or worry about it for a while and then ask them. Jughead just agreed with Reggie.


5. Reggie isn't there when Veronica cries, and only knows what Jughead tells him, that she "looked sad," which could mean anything. He doesn't how nearby she is, so he can't find her and try to comfort her as easily. But he's still dismissive of what could be a serious problem, for all he knows. He's hypocritical, too, since he's usually more selfish than her.


4. Archie might be innocent, but he still just heard his girlfriend is sad and doesn't try to find her or defend her. He might be planning to look for her, though, and maybe he defends her after the last panel.


3. The nurses didn't do anything wrong, since they didn't know that Veronica was listening to them, or that she planned to talk to her father about giving money to the hospital.


2. It was nice of Veronica to help at the hospital, and to plan on asking her father to help, although we don't see if she did ask him.


1. It was the best of Betty to help and ask Veronica to help. She showed the most kindness in this story, although I agree that Veronica's charity moments are sweet because they're rare!




I feel sorriest for Betty because the nurses showed, once she had left, that they don't think the dolls are a very valuable contribution. "A measly couple of handmade dolls." Betty, who can't afford to give anything else, would have felt even worse than Veronica hearing that. Veronica is entitled to feel crushed for a little while when her hard work is criticized, but she only worked on the dolls for one day, and she's lucky she's able to help make larger contributions. Betty might never be able to, and she made a big project of the dolls, but the only reason the nurses were nice about them is because they feel she can't be expected to do any better. This story seems to be critical of the nurses, but it includes a panel of Veronica deciding to ask her father to give the hospital money, because without it, we would probably feel the same way the nurses did. "Just dolls? That's all she's giving?"


I don't think the nurses are prejudiced against Veronica herself. The writer would have made them say it, instead of saying "They didn't get rich by giving their money away." I think Craig Boldman was writing about how people dehumanize the rich and see them only in terms of money, and that this is unfair to the children of the rich, who didn't choose their income level. He makes us resent Veronica at the beginning for being spoiled with money her parents made, and then plays against it at the end by showing an injustice that her parents also created. I think he was trying to do that, but I don't think he was right. The nurses are right, at least that rich people should give more.

The snob and cheapness of the Lodges seems to depend on the writer.








Veronica is a snob in a lot of stories, too. But I think the nurses are thinking of the family's money more than their character.


That was what I took away from this story, but I'm thinking over the other comments made here. Thanks to everyone for your input. It's great to have feedback on stories that leave me feeling, "There must be something more to this."


DeCarlo Rules

#20
When it comes to Jughead in this story, there are several things that I take into consideration. One is that Jughead and Veronica have a traditional acrimonious sort of rivalry. Some of what Jughead says about Veronica amounts to fair criticism, but he feels like she can take it as well as dish it out. Another thing to take into account is the reason Jughead feels this way about Veronica has a lot to do with him being best friends with Archie, and he just has to stand there and watch when he sees how she treats him sometimes. He's also resentful towards her because of her Svengali-like hold over Archie, when it's clear to Jughead that Betty is more deserving of Archie's attention, and that rankles him. Earlier when Betty was defending Veronica's character it was in terms of generalities, amounting to "Oh, she's not as bad as all that", and Jughead resists the idea because he's probably thinking something like "Isn't that just like Betty, the eternal optimist, she always wants to believe the best about people and give them the benefit of the doubt -- a sweet kid, but too much of a softie". But the information that Betty relates to him about Veronica helping make dolls for the hospital is something different, a concrete example of Veronica's better character, and appears to have caused him to doubt his earlier convictions about Veronica, and he seems to want to get confirmation of what Betty told him directly from Veronica herself, but he doesn't know what to do when he sees her so upset. Because of their adversarial relationship, maybe he's not comfortable approaching her while she's in this mood, but he doesn't seem to understand how he can reconcile her emotional state with what Betty told him -- shouldn't Veronica feel good about herself for helping Betty make the dolls? Was he wrong about Veronica before, or not? He's confused, and he seems to accept Reggie's reasoning as the simplest explanation, but who knows what he's really thinking when he says "Yeah, probably!" in response. It feels like a weak acquiescence to the consensus opinion without any real conviction or resolution to the doubt that Betty placed in his mind, and Jughead doesn't realize as he's going along with this  that Veronica is overhearing Reggie's remarks and bursting into tears.

stylishnotebook




Even if they fight sometimes, Jughead and Veronica are friends who hang out together in a group, and they play in the same band. He goes to her parties. He should show concern for her if she's crying. If he decides to ignore her because of what you said about her treating Archie badly, he is wrong to do that, just as Veronica would be wrong to ignore him because of his misogyny, if their positions were reversed.


I don't think his response in the last panel seemed weak or undecided. Jughead isn't the kind to say something unless he means it. I doubt Veronica bursts into tears because of what Reggie says; she was already crying. They are across the street, so she probably can't hear them. But I agree with how you described Jughead's motives and thoughts when he talks to Betty.I don't think that what Jughead said to Betty earlier is bad; I just think that he was wrong to make fun of Veronica for crying and not ask her why.

DeCarlo Rules

#22
Quote from: stylishnotebook on April 01, 2017, 07:23:28 AMEven if they fight sometimes, Jughead and Veronica are friends who hang out together in a group, and they play in the same band. He goes to her parties. He should show concern for her if she's crying. If he decides to ignore her because of what you said about her treating Archie badly, he is wrong to do that, just as Veronica would be wrong to ignore him because of his misogyny, if their positions were reversed.

How Jughead relates to Veronica in a group dynamic when Archie and Betty are around is one thing. How he relates to her when the two of them are alone is another thing altogether. Jughead doesn't spend much time in Veronica's company apart from the group -- particularly in a situation he's not used to dealing with, which feels somehow out-of-character in terms of his expectations of Veronica's normal behavior. He expects to ask her about making dolls for the hospital with Betty, and his expectation would be that she should be in a good mood because of that experience (it was still the same day), only to find quite the opposite, which seems unaccountable in light of what Betty told him. His original evident intent here is to compliment her for her good work: "Hey, Veronica! I heard what a nice job you did on those -- ?!" Emphasis here is mine, but note how Jughead interrupts his thought mid-sentence when he reacts with surprise ("?!") to observing her uncharacteristic mood - nor does Veronica herself turn around, or acknowledge Jughead's shout in any way - she keeps on walking away (a good indicator that she may not feel like talking right now). Jughead isn't as relaxed just being himself around Veronica as he is with Betty.

Of course Jughead doesn't always relate to all members of the gang equally as friends. His one-on-one relation to both Veronica and Reggie is more frequently contentious than anything else. Furthermore, even the group dynamic is constantly in a state of flux, according to each specific story situation. Here are some of the group dynamics that we often see:

- Reggie vs. everybody ("Reggie the rat")
- Reggie vs. Archie & Jughead (hey, they're best friends, but Reggie is a frenemy at best)
- Reggie & Veronica vs. somebody else (it's a plot!)
- Reggie & Betty vs. Archie & Veronica  (divide & conquer)
- Betty & Veronica vs. Archie/Jughead/Reggie (girls vs. guys)
- Betty & Jughead vs. Veronica & Archie or Veronica & Reggie (Jughead has no illusions as to where his sympathies lie)
- Jughead vs. everybody else (in situations where Jughead just wants to hoard food, or they're trying to break him of his misogynistic tendencies)

It's easy to list the group dynamics that you DON'T see, though:
- Jughead & Veronica vs. everybody (or anybody)
- Jughead & Reggie vs. everybody (or anybody)

There are a few other possible combinations that we don't see too frequently, as well. There's one final role that Jughead sometimes plays in stories that is never assigned to any of the other four -- that of the detached observer with no vested interest in the outcome of events, taking no sides nor any deliberate action that would affect the course of events.

Stories like "Poor Little Rich Girl" where the general thrust isn't comedic, but tragic, are atypical and hard to predict or classify -- we're not even aware that it's an atypical story until we get to the end.

Quote from: stylishnotebook on April 01, 2017, 07:23:28 AMI don't think his response in the last panel seemed weak or undecided. Jughead isn't the kind to say something unless he means it. I doubt Veronica bursts into tears because of what Reggie says; she was already crying. They are across the street, so she probably can't hear them. But I agree with how you described Jughead's motives and thoughts when he talks to Betty.I don't think that what Jughead said to Betty earlier is bad; I just think that he was wrong to make fun of Veronica for crying and not ask her why.

Maybe. I see no tears (merely a "Sniff!") when she heads down the street away from Jughead, and Jughead describes her mood as "sad" -- you'd think that if he saw she was actually crying, he'd have made note of that, and mentioned it, rather than just pass it off as merely "sad". We DON'T see her crying in that panel where Jughead sees her, and we can assume that neither does he -- and judging from his relative distance from her in that one panel, it hardly seems likely that he was close enough to hear that "Sniff!". No, the first time we see her in tears is after Reggie has just passed by (on the same side of the street, just around the corner of the building on the same sidewalk the boys are on), after making his remark. Jughead's earlier observation to the guys was "Huh! I just saw Veronica and she looked kinda SAD!" He's not making fun of her, he's simply stating what he saw to Archie and Reggie, and if you look at the expression on his face as he says it, he's not laughing, he's puzzled -- it's "Huh!" a quizzical exclamation, not "Hah!", some kind of condemning judgment. Jughead doesn't make fun of her -- but the moment he announces that he saw her looking "kinda SAD", Reggie's immediate reaction to this information is a hearty "HA!".

And what about Veronica in that panel, at that very moment when Jughead sees her walking down the street, lost in her sadness? Was she crying at that moment? Maybe, maybe not. She wasn't crying when we saw her react to overhearing the nurses' comments about her and her family, so when exactly did she begin to cry? We can't say for sure, except that she's certainly crying in that final panel, where she's close enough to overhear Reggie's comments. Closer than she was to Jughead in the previous panel, when he shouted after her. Did she even hear him? Again - maybe, maybe not. Let's assume she did, and that she was already crying. Does she even want to see anybody at this point, or for anyone to see her like this? Her makeup must be a mess if she's been crying. Does it even make any sense that she wants to be comforted by Jughead, feeling the way she does at that moment, for him to see her so vulnerable? I doubt if she'd even want to see Archie at that point. Her ego has been badly bruised. Betty, and only Betty, would be the one she could open up to for comforting at that moment -- she's the only one that could understand, and who Veronica could explain herself to. Assuming she wasn't so lost in misery that she DID hear Jughead's shout, she probably just ignored him and hurried away. Even if she wasn't crying yet at that point, she's a mess. The great Veronica Lodge, famously perfect and imperturbable, always in control with her wealth and beauty, has been humbled, and made to feel lower than a centipede's belly. What's going through her mind as she walks down the street? No one can say for sure, but in my opinion it's probably something along the lines of "They all HATE me!"...

We can't hear Jughead's tone of voice when he responds to Reggie's assessment of Veronica's mood -- "Yeah, probably!" so we don't know if he sounds confident/definite or uncommittal/"whatever...". It's up to the reader to supply that context for Jughead out of his or her head. His use of the word "probably" here doesn't seem like 100% confidence to me -- particularly as contrasted with his earlier very smarmy, sarcastic judgments against Veronica's character, prior to Betty telling him about Veronica spending the afternoon with Betty making dolls for the hospital. To me, when I read that it feels like he's going along with Reggie only because he'd like to believe he was right about Veronica earlier... but now there's a seed of doubt that Betty planted, that uncomfortably won't go away. I also find it telling that earlier, he was more than happy to share his opinions about Veronica with Betty, when she obviously disagreed, but now that he's in the like-minded company of Reggie, he's got nothing further to add of his own opinions. Should that seed of doubt have caused Jughead to voice an objection to Reggie's simplistic explanation? Maybe. Maybe Jughead hasn't really thought about it enough, or it's easier to just accept Reggie's assessment that agreed with Jughead's earlier preconceptions of Veronica. Maybe he should talk to Betty again about it.

Reggie and Archie showing up in the last 2 panels of the story, just at the moment of Jughead's confused reaction to seeing Veronica, is a wild card element. (Archie has no dialogue, and so he could functionally have been left out of those two panels altogether.) Previously they had nothing to do with the proceedings. Up to that point, the story had been about Veronica, Betty & Jughead, along with a single page interlude with the 2 incidental characters of the unnamed nurses. If Reggie & Archie hadn't shown up just at that moment, maybe Jughead would have gone back into Pop's to tell Betty "Huh! I just saw Veronica and she looked kinda SAD!" (there's no point if he doesn't tell someone what he just saw), and of course Betty's reaction would have been completely different from Reggie's -- as would Jughead's response. Sometimes the ending to a story can turn on a dime.

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