Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 09:40:08 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 05:41:28 PM
It also gives you more insight into both Midge's and Reggie's characters than has been the case in 75 years of classic Archie stories,

How?

... I don't know, maybe it's because in classic Archie stories, we don't get a single clue as to what's going on in Midge's (especially Midge... who, in classic Archie stories is far more of a prop than an actual character) and Reggie's heads. Well, 99% of the time, anyway. I think the story with Harper was probably more characterization (apart from the usual "egotistical/dirty trickster" attributes) than Reggie usually gets about 99% of the time. But the story here pretty much spells it out for you... "Nobody thinks of themselves as a villain." Only in classic Archie stories, we really don't get to see much about how Reggie really sees himself and how he he justifies his behavior in his own mind. On the other hand, I'm sure if I wanted to go back to 1960s stories where Reggie had thought balloons that said things like "EVIL", or "BLACKNESS RISING in my heart", I could probably build a case that (for a period of time, anyway) he DID think of himself as the villain.

Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 09:40:08 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 05:41:28 PM

Quoteso it's kind of a shame that none of that realy applies to the classic versions of the characters.

Everything important we learn about their characters in this issue (Midge using Reggie when she gets frustrated with Moose, Reggie thinking he might be psychopathic and being in love with Midge) already applies to their characters, it's just that the classic Archie writers always showed it to us instead of telling us. The story where Midge says her parents are divorcing or even the story we talked about earlier where Reggie's mother fawned over his narcissism, I would call those insightful because they gave us new possible reasons for why Midge and Reggie act as they do but theyre reasons most people probably never thought of before, unlike the Afterlife backstory.

QuoteAfter Reggie comes back to the group, feigning remorse and contriteness in order to effect his plan of killing Betty, he's shunned by everyone except Archie, Betty and Kevin (and possibly, even Archie won't be willing to forgive him). Who is the most likely to reach out to him with forgiveness, sympathy and understanding? Betty Cooper, that's who. When Reggie realizes she's the only one who isn't judging him for his sins, he begins to realize just what a good person she is, and reflecting on his times with Midge, that she only ever really used him for her own purposes. He was planning to go through with his bargain and kill Betty, but now he finds himself falling in love with her...

Yeah Reggie won't be able to make himself kill Betty because she's the hope or holy one, I would say that if Reggie's going to fall in love with someone it'll probably be either Betty or, what do you think--Kevin? See this artist Gabbie Gross, the one who did BettyReggie's avatar and sig, has this whole blog arguing that Reggie in Afterlife is gay or bi and in love with Kevin: http://hireggiebireggie.tumblr.com/post/144892443723/the-case-for-a-bisexual-reggie-in-afterlife-with and she did lots of gay fan arts of the two as a couple including a whole fan comic, you can see them all here: http://gabbiegross.tumblr.com/ This surprised me because she says Betty/Reggie is her favorite Archie couple but Reggie is her favorite Archie character, I guess she likes to ship him with everybody (and girls love slash), she does make a fair argument that Reggie/Kevin might happen in Afterlife if they're looking for new boundaries to cross.

You're confusing me, Daren. At first you seem to be arguing that these characters (apart from the more serious tone of AWA) are pretty much the exact same characters as they are in classic Archie stories. Then you start talking about Reggie killing Betty or falling in love with her, or maybe even turning out to be gay... so clearly they're NOT the same characters, because none of those things are "in character" for 'classic Reggie'.

So NO, they are NOT the same characters, although you could say that they're "loosely based" (emphasis on the "loosely") on the classic Archie characters. Therefore the character motivations of the AWA characters do not apply to the classic versions. It might be more accurate to say that they are RA-S's "re-interpretations" of the classic Archie characters. I particular disagree with his take on Veronica, whose behavior in AWA seems way off the beam to me. Not to mention Mr. Lodge, Ginger and Nancy, etc. Some other characters are a little closer. Midge is largely a blank slate anyway, so any writer would be free to fill in the blanks however he so chose, within the very loose framework of the Moose/Midge/Reggie triangle. That said, even in the classic Archie stories there's not a single hint that Midge is just using Reggie like she is in AWA.

I haven't updated this in a few days, so here's what I read the last four days:

Saturday May 28:
STAR TREK: ASSIGNMENT EARTH TP by John Byrne

Sunday May 29:
STAR TREK 100-PAGE SPECTACULAR 2011 (#1)
STAR TREK 100-PAGE SPECTACULAR 2012 (#2)
STAR TREK: LEONARD McCOY: FRONTIER DOCTOR TP by John Byrne

Monday May 30:
STAR TREK CLASSICS: THE GORN CRISIS TP
ARCHIE GIANT COMICS SPOTLIGHT
CAPTAIN CANUCK: ALEPH TP

Tuesday May 31:
STAR TREK: KLINGONS: BLOOD WILL TELL TP
AFTERLIFE WITH ARCHIE #9

Quote from: Thrillho on May 31, 2016, 07:14:15 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 06:26:02 PM

That seemed to be what was being implied in the restaurant scene -- and furthermore, it was implied that the baby wasn't Moose's, either! (... and from Reggie's story, we can surmise it isn't his either.) But we'll probably not get any further enlightenment on that particular point.

I didn't even think of that when I read that scene.  I thought she was talking about an abortion for sure but I thought Midge's "none of his business" "nothing to do with him" bit was more of a "my body, my choice" thing. I never considered there might be a third guy in that mess.

"What do you THINK, GENIUS? ...actually, it's probably not what you're thinking..."

And what would Midge think Reggie would be thinking, hmm...? That she was pregnant with Moose's child?
But then she realizes it's NOT what he'd be thinking, after all...

Maybe she's not pregnant, but she just isn't completely sure yet. But if she IS, she doesn't want Moose knowing about it...!
Because he has, or HAD, nothing to do with it.

Quote from: BettyReggie on May 31, 2016, 06:02:38 PM
I just finished reading too.It was great. Reggie is the definitely the star of this issue. It seemed Midge only ran to Reggie when she wanted his help because Moose is so abusive. The scene in the restaurant, tell me if I'm wrong was Midge asking Reggie for money so she can get abortion? That's what I thought. One part of story was really X rated, when Reggie was in bed . And he called out Midge , it looked like dirty. And Kevin looked great . He told the gang what Reggie admitted about killing Hot Dog.
At end I can't believe Sabrina told Reggie if you kill Betty then Midge will come back to life. And he said he will Betty, Poor Archie, they supposed to get married. But Veronica will be thrilled I think to have Betty out of picture.

That seemed to be what was being implied in the restaurant scene -- and furthermore, it was implied that the baby wasn't Moose's, either! (... and from Reggie's story, we can surmise it isn't his either.) But we'll probably not get any further enlightenment on that particular point.

Now here's something else to think about -- After getting beaten up by Moose, Reggie drives off in anger, and deliberately swerves his car to hit Hot Dog. Then of course the next time we see him is at the Halloween party, so it's unclear whether he ever did wind up giving that $500 to Midge... and if he didn't, and she gets brought back to life, it may be she's just as pregnant as she was before getting infected and turned into a zombie.

Somehow, though... I don't think Reggie is going to wind up being responsible for Betty's death. Not to say that I don't think she'll wind up dying, I just don't think Reggie will ultimately go through with his bargain. In fact, it's easy for me to imagine something like the following happening...

After Reggie comes back to the group, feigning remorse and contriteness in order to effect his plan of killing Betty, he's shunned by everyone except Archie, Betty and Kevin (and possibly, even Archie won't be willing to forgive him). Who is the most likely to reach out to him with forgiveness, sympathy and understanding? Betty Cooper, that's who. When Reggie realizes she's the only one who isn't judging him for his sins, he begins to realize just what a good person she is, and reflecting on his times with Midge, that she only ever really used him for her own purposes. He was planning to go through with his bargain and kill Betty, but now he finds himself falling in love with her...

Just got to read AWA #9 today. I'd say it's the best-written issue so far. It also gives you more insight into both Midge's and Reggie's characters than has been the case in 75 years of classic Archie stories, so it's kind of a shame that none of that realy applies to the classic versions of the characters.

It seemed a little odd that Reggie chose to reveal his darkest secrets to Kevin, of all people - given that in an earlier issue it was strongly implied that Reggie is a homophobe - but I guess considering the circumstances, his choices of messengers was pretty limited.

Quote from: Chic Cooper on May 25, 2016, 08:04:06 PM
...and the moral is: Never lie to the girls, boys. Unless they ask if their butt looks big in this. Then run for the hills! 

And never forget that the ONLY correct answer to "How do I look?" is... "You couldn't look any better." (Technically, not a lie...)

Quote from: Asdfghjkl on May 30, 2016, 12:59:30 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 30, 2016, 01:57:44 AM
It couldn't be this one, could it?

The Betty Cooper, Betty Cooper stories always sounded so epic.  It's hard to believe that they were part of classic Archie.  Or even never made into a current "New Riverdale" or "Archie Horror" series.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wouldn't rule out seeing similar elements crop up on RIVERDALE. Might be tough to recognize given all the arbitrary changes in character and relationships...  Probably no genies, though. But maybe some of the darker/weirder aspects of BCBC.

Quote from: Thrillho on May 29, 2016, 04:28:56 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 29, 2016, 12:16:02 AM

Quote from: BettyReggie on May 28, 2016, 11:54:42 AM
I'm guessing mine will come today. But I did listen to Riverdale Podcast, so I know what happens. I'm just wondering what's going when the book ends. Will Riverdale go back to normal. Was it all dream? 

Yes, that would be the happy ending to a zombie story that involves Dan Parent drawing the final page, which I referred to in an earlier post. To me that would be the ideal ending, but I'm sure it would just tick some other readers off, particularly (but by no means exclusively) the non-classic Archie readers.

The more conventionally expected ending would be "You die, he dies, she dies, everybody dies." (More likely though, everybody BUT Archie.)

I wouldn't really go for that. The whole point of AWA is that it's supposed to be an alternate universe so I expect/want something that deviates from classic Archie. I think a truly happy ending is out of the realm of possibility as they've already lost too many family members and friends, and I think a time spell or something like that would be a cop out. I can see a bittersweet ending where the survivors come to terms with their losses, get to burying their loved ones, and being hopeful about the future. I also don't see everyone dying as this book takes itself more seriously than Archie vs. Predator did.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought that there's any serious chance of what I'm calling "the Dan Parent ending" happening. The reason I see it as "ideal" is that it seems like it has such a fractional chance in hell of actually happening, that to really DO it would surprise and delight me.


On the other hand, I'm surprised at how many people seem to be heavily counting on the "hopeful ending". As you point out, the book takes itself seriously (as a horror comic book ...) To me that is a pretty strong argument AGAINST the "hopeful" ending, or should I say more accurately, the "hoped FOR" ending. Because so many people seem to want and expect and hope for that ending, is exactly the reason I DON'T think it will actually happen. In the final analysis, it lessens the overall horror of the story if (even after suffering great losses) "the good guys finally won". In other words, I don't see this as being a story about heroes and villains, with "good" ultimately triumphing over "evil". The main point of horror, it seems to me, is to make you feel uncomfortable, and providing the expected "the good guys won" ending seems to play too much to the readers' expectations that it will all somehow work out in the end.

Quote from: invisifan on May 30, 2016, 02:02:33 AM
Prom Problem is from Veronica #65 (July 1997) ... I would guess Prom Promoter is from Betty or Archie of the same month ... ?

Well, VERONICA #65 has A story titled "Prom Problem", but it's not the same story. That one is about Veronica inviting Dilton to take her to the prom, and is by Barbara Slate (writer) and Jeff Shultz (penciller). (I'd love to read it, if anyone has scans... hint, hint.  )

There are many Archie Comics stories that use the same titles, so it's always a good idea to check to see whether the one you're trying to reference has the same number of pages and the same writer and artist credited (IF that information is available... artists can usually be identified reliably by eye for the major Archie Comics artists, but it depends on how old the story is). Sometimes one printing is credited, while another isn't (if they're not cross-referenced at GCD), and at other times different credits might conflict, even if the plot synopsis would tend to lead you to believe they are in fact the same story. You can't always depend on the "feature character" listed in GCD, as that's sometimes changed in reprinting by replacing the character logo on the story.

But in this case, "Prom Promoter" is clearly (even apart from considering the logo on the story) the Veronica story, while "Prom Problem" is the Archie story. Even if we can't depend on the logo not being replaced, there's no disputing the central character in each story. Betty is an incidental character in both stories.

Thanks for trying, anyway! 

EDIT/PS - The fact that Stan Goldberg pencilled the Veronica story "Prom Promoter" leads me to believe that it didn't appear in VERONICA, but more likely either BETTY AND VERONICA, BETTY AND VERONICA SPECTACULAR, or one of the anthology titles like PEP, LAUGH, ARCHIE'S PALS 'N' GALS, or ARCHIE & FRIENDS, since it would be more likely that a story from VERONICA was pencilled by either Dan DeCarlo (Sr. or Jr.) or Dan Parent, who were together responsible for the vast majority of Veronica stories in her own title. Not saying it's impossible that it appeared in that title, but just a likely clue to go on. Both stories were inked by Henry Scarpelli, by the way, but that wouldn't seem to offer any real clues, other than it seems likely that both stories were created at the same time, and -- again, it only reinforces my suspicion that one of those writers is mis-credited, and that both stories are actually the work of either George Gladir or of Bob Bolling (my bet would be on Gladir). That's just a guess, and I could be wrong about that -- "Prom Problem" has the appearance of fantasy characters (Archie's personal angel and devil) which IS an indicator of a Bolling-written story, but then again, the personal angel and devil is a trope used in SO many Archie stories that it hardly represents any evidence that's "highly probable", nevermind close to being "conclusive". I'm sure I could find Gladir stories where he used the trope if I looked hard enough. I'm basing that guess that both stories are written by the same man on a calculated unlikelihood that Gladir and Bolling would have been in direct contact with each other to agree on the various VERY specific background details that are common to both stories. While those details could have been dictated by an editor, I've seen no evidence in any Archie stories of that degree of editorial coordination, as would be somewhat more common with editors for Marvel or DC Comics, for instance. In trying to imagine the circumstances under which the stories were written, I have to ask myself then -- if they're both the work of one writer, then why didn't he simply combine both stories into one longer story that combined scenes from both? Either it was an editorially-dictated experiment in continuity between two stories, or one story served as the inspiration for the other, which was likely written directly after the first. Either way, it still seems more likely to me that both were written by the same man. Reversing that logic, perhaps the original idea WAS for a longer story that combined both plots, but the editor insisted that the story be cut down to 6 pages, so the writer simply split it into two sides of the same coin, each of which is complete in itself. Another possibility is that both stories originally appeared in the same comic book, and it was just a fun idea to create two parallel stories centered around the events of the same prom. If I'm wrong about the "two stories, same writer" theory, then it WAS a deliberate editorial experiment (and the stories originally likely appeared in two different comic books) designed to test reader reaction to Marvel/DC-style cross-title continuity in Archie Comics, which would actually be the more interesting scenario. If that were indeed the case, then the probability that readers would have been alerted to the experiment in Victor Gorelick's "Editor's Notes" monthly column seems very high.

It couldn't be this one, could it?

Here's an example of something I've never seen in any Archie stories before. I know what the stories are and where they were reprinted, but what I'm hoping is that someone can help identify where and when the stories originally appeared.

I happened to be reading ARCHIE GIANT COMICS COLLECTION, one of those 480 page digests that collects pages previously published in digests that appeared only a month or two earlier (for those that didn't know). ARCHIE GIANT COMICS COLLECTION was released June 10, 2015, and reprinted the two stories in question -- Veronica in "Prom Promoter" (previously reprinted in B&V FRIENDS DD #243, released May 13, 2015) and Archie in "Prom Problem" (previously reprinted in ARCHIE'S FUNHOUSE JUMBO COMICS DIGEST #15, released May 27, 2015). Undoubtedly I'd read both stories when they appeared in the earlier digest reprintings, but I never noticed the weird continuity between them because they were each reprinted in a different digest. In ARCHIE GIANT COMICS COLLECTION, they appear separated by a mere 26 pages.

"Prom Promoter" is a 6 page story starring Veronica, credited to George Gladir (writer) and Stan Goldberg (penciller). It tells Veronica's story of how she has to come up with a solution to allow her to leave with Mr. Lodge on a business trip to Patagonia, on a flight departing the airport at midnight on Friday -- the same night as Spring Prom Night. Veronica's proposed solution to Mr. Lodge is to have the private Lodge helicopter land on the RHS baseball field at 11:30pm and whisk her directly from the prom to the airport, while the band hired for the prom - Gilly and the Gig Pigs - in the bleachers, gives her a musical sendoff. In this story, Archie still hasn't ASKED her to the prom, but she's confident that he will. She tries to catch him at Pop's "having his usual pre-practice sodas" but misses him, so she goes to watch him at baseball practice, hoping he'll ask her for sure when he notices her in the bleachers after practice. Unfortunately for Ronnie, Betty is also there, and when Archie gets beaned by a fly ball and is lying at third base dazed and confused, she runs out to help him and while he's lying stunned and groggy he asks her to the prom. Out of luck, Veronica calls on Reggie as her back-up plan for a prom date, but he's just been beaten up by Moose for trying to kiss Midge (which happened in the same bleachers at baseball practice, but Veronica missed it because she stormed off after Betty announced to her that Archie had asked her to the prom). Fast-forward to Friday night's prom, and Reggie's there in a wheelchair with a nurse, and Veronica's dancing with Archie, who explains that Betty suddenly got the flu and had to miss the prom. Cut to time for Veronica's grand exit to the airport. She goes to the baseball field but the band isn't there to send her off (except for Gilly himself, with a tuba). Svenson explains to her that the rest of the band went to serenade poor sick Betty, and that all the prom-goers decided to go to "Tijuana Marvin's" to celebrate. As the Lodge helicopter flies away with Veronica, she asks the pilot to fly over Betty's address -- "You can't miss it, there's a band there", where she drops a card to Betty on which she's written "Dear Betty -- Hope you feel better! Get well soon! Without you I'm losing my competitive edge! Ron!"

Nothing particularly unusual or notable about that story by itself, but here's where it gets interesting. In the other story I mentioned, "Prom Problem", a 6 page story credited to Bob Bolling (writer) and Stan Goldberg (penciller), Archie can't sleep because he's being tormented by his personal devil and angel over whom to ask to Spring Prom Night. He can't decide, and until then he's avoiding both Betty and Veronica. After Archie ducks both B&V at school, Veronica goes to Pop's trying to catch him -- "He ALWAYS comes here for his usual two sodas before (baseball) practice!" Pop mentions that Jughead was just in and ordered two sodas, and as he's looking out the window, Veronica turns around to look and sees Jughead pushing a baby carriage past on the sidewalk with Archie wearing a bonnet in it... Pop says "Unusual 'tho, to give a baby that much to drink!" She runs out, trying to chase them in her spike heels, but can't catch them. She finally goes to baseball practice to wait for him in the bleachers near third base, but Betty's already there, and just as Archie gets beaned with a baseball at third base, Betty runs out to help, and while in his dazed and confused condition, Archie's personal angel whispers in his ear to ask Betty to the prom, which he does. Archie's personal devil mutters "ARRGH! You win this round!" Later at home, Archie's mother hands him the phone -- "It's Betty!" She can't go to the prom because she's got the flu. Later, at the prom, Archie's talking to Chuck about the whole crowd going to "Tijuana Marvin's" after the prom, but first Archie makes an arrangement for the band (guess who?) "Gilly and the Gig Pigs" to show up at Betty's house to serenade her as a consolation for missing the prom.

Now, each of those is a perfectly serviceable story on its own, but clearly there are too many specific points in common for this synchronicity to be a coincidence, specifically: Veronica trying to catch Archie at Pop's before practice, Archie getting beaned by a baseball at practice, and thereby asking Betty to the prom while in a dazed state, Betty getting the flu and missing the prom, the kids all going to Tijuana Marvin's after the prom, while Gilly and the Gig Pigs go to Betty's house and serenade her to make her feel better.

Neither is one story a re-write of the other one (common in Archie Comics, I know), because they both tell significantly different stories, that can't really be deemed as "a variation" on the other one's plot, yet just as clearly they are two stories of the same chain of events, told from different perspectives. I'm almost inclined to think that the credits given here are wrong, and that both stories were written by the same writer.

Does anyone remember where the stories (either or both) originally appeared? (Comics.org was no help, unfortunately.) I wonder if they had originally appeared in the same comic, or came out in the same month, or if the connection between them was ever mentioned in Victor Gorelick's "Editor's Notes" text feature that used to appear regularly for years in the 1990s.

Quote from: BettyReggie on May 28, 2016, 11:54:42 AM
I'm guessing mine will come today. But I did listen to Riverdale Podcast, so I know what happens. I'm just wondering what's going when the book ends. Will Riverdale go back to normal. Was it all dream? 

Yes, that would be the happy ending to a zombie story that involves Dan Parent drawing the final page, which I referred to in an earlier post. To me that would be the ideal ending, but I'm sure it would just tick some other readers off, particularly (but by no means exclusively) the non-classic Archie readers.

The more conventionally expected ending would be "You die, he dies, she dies, everybody dies." (More likely though, everybody BUT Archie.)

Jughead's Han Solo costume was better. He should have won.

I guess my point would be that the comedy that's crucial to classic Archie is built entirely on a foundation of absurdist assumptions. If the characters are forced into a mold where consistency, continuity and realism are the overriding factors, all of the characters come under scrutiny for the believability of their charactistics and actions, and the ramifications that would ensue from those. It's not realistic for Dilton to be a genius boy inventor creating anti-gravity shoes and artificially-intelligent robots, or that there wouldn't be any lasting consequences from Reggie's constant extreme pranking, or that Moose would be allowed to beat guys up over and over again whenever they cast a stray glance or casual conversation in Midge's direction. It's impossible for anyone to eat as much as Jughead does, or for Archie to be as klutzy as he is (yet he can still be on the RHS sports teams and play guitar in his own band) or constantly ignoring one girl to date another or getting sent to detention every other day, or for Reggie or Veronica to be as vain and conceited as they are and not be socially ostracized as a result of it. All of those things only work if they're treated as cartoon characters, and the real-world consequences of their extreme characteristics or behavior don't extend past the final panel "The End" of any individual story. In a realistic story all of those characteristics have to be scaled far down to more human proportions, and consideration given to how they would affect the character's ongoing relationships with people and social status in the real world, so none of those things are particularly funny any more.