Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 01:56:08 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 06, 2016, 10:21:21 AM

It does sort of beg the logical question of why Archie didn't just use the tranquilizer spray on Veronica though, doesn't it?

Maybe he's so used to being reduced to a quivering blob of Jello whenever she gets angry at him that he was too rattled to maintain the same calm cool demeanor he had with Big Moose.

Of course the only real answer is that they had to wrap the story up on that page and needed a funny ending, and you're not supposed to be thinking about it that hard (although it's pretty hard NOT to).

Because Veronica would remember what happened after the spray wore off, Moose's memory isn't that reliable and he wouldn't care if Reggie remembers.

How do you know what they'd remember or wouldn't, or HOW they'd remember it? Nothing about that is mentioned in the story. For all you know, they might remember being mad, and then all of a sudden not mad, but that doesn't mean they'd get mad about it again. Maybe the experience was pleasant, and they'd want to get tranquilized again. Maybe they'd decide the feeling of being tranquilized is better than the feeling of being mad. Jughead might then go on to become the new drug kingpin of Riverdale, and easily finance a life of gluttonous excess.

OR... you're not supposed to be thinking about it that hard

Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 01:34:46 PM
Look, it's obvious from things written here and on the old forum that you (and some other people here) don't like Veronica, or at least have issues with her and like seeing her punished because your main view of her is she's a "spoiled little brat" who deserves whatever she gets, as opposed to people like me who actually like her and only like seeing her punished because she's usually so funny when it happens. That's fine, there are Archie characters I don't like either and would be happy to see fall on their face, it just happens so much more to my two favorite characters because theyre the villains, so I'll just try to let you enjoy your Veronica-humiliations without my butting in from now on.

Daren, Daren, Daren... buddy, I really don't know what's setting you off here, but you're sounding almost as if you've never read an Archie comic before. Seriously, is Veronica in ANY physical danger here whatsoever? The danger of embarassment, and getting a dose of her own medicine, yes. Danger of being hurt by Archie? Oh, please. There's another story above where he does far LESS to her than she does to him in "Cover Up", and he winds up in the final panel looking like he went 3 rounds with a heavyweight pro boxer. But because it's ARCHIE, no harm no foul, he deserves every bruise and broken bone that Veronica gives him, right? When it's Veronica who's getting the business, she's SUCH a delicate little flower, it doesn't matter what she's done, she doesn't deserve to be so much as touched without permission. There is such a thing as reverse sexism, you know.

Where is the COMEDY supposed to be coming from in this story, in your opinion? You're reading this as "Hey guys, dames love it when you take charge and push them around -- the rough stuff turns 'em on!" That is a completely distorted BS reading of this story, and deep down, you know it. Either that, or you've never read an Archie comic before. Or never studied Harry Lucey's style of slapstick cartooning.

Forget about how much you hate Archie for a minute, and just treat this story as a standalone. The only thing you need to make note of here is how Veronica treats Archie like a worm. And in other stories, he IS a worm and deserves such treatment, but not here. Here he is the deliverer of whatever poetic justice exists (in an Archie story). USUALLY, he's the recipient, so don't be confused. ARCHIE is the protagonist of this story, the feckless loser put-upon once too often who finally grows a new spine. He does nothing here (forget ANY other stories where he did) to deserve her treating him like dirt. She treats him like she OWNS him, like he's her personal property. Even if you bring NO prior knowledge of anything else about Archie to the story, you can pretty much assume there's nothing unusual in how Veronica is treating Archie here, no unusual extenuating circumstances. This is the way she treats him ALL the time (you can assume, for the purposes of this one story), and this one time, he's had enough of it and decides to reach deep down inside and pull out some gumption to stand up to her. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but I'll try it one more time. If Archie all of a sudden starts behaving like a real person in the real world in this story, and not a cartoon person in a cartoon world, then the STORY IS OVER. There's nothing funny to be made from the situation, and he either has a serious walk-out/break-up scene with Veronica in order to preserve his own ("just found it") self-respect, or they have a angst-ridden argument/discussion about the nature of their relationship. That can't happen, because it's an Archie story that needs to have a snappy, funny ending that will probably be about "The Worm Turns". The degree of reality that you're trying to impute to this story just doesn't exist, and it CAN'T exist. Just like the broken, battered, and beaten Archie in that other story will miraculously heal himself in time to appear in the first panel of the next story, so will Veronica acquire amnesia of her comeuppance in THIS story. It's just a cartoon, so if it's not funny, you want it to be real too badly. Or somehow you just canNOT see where Veronica is mistreating Archie in any way in this story, in which case you probably believe she never HAS done anything to Archie that he didn't deserve. In which case, I'm wasting my time trying to make you see things any differently.

And maybe part of the problem here is in what you're reading in that ONE panel where Archie pushes the washcloth onto her face. Harry Lucey's style is to exaggerate, exaggerate, exaggerate -- every action is drawn to be heightened and more extreme to make it more comedic, more slapstick, faster, more furious, but you're reading that extreme exaggeration as force and violence, as if this were a 'serious' superhero comic you're reading. Seriously. What is there about THIS story that's so different than any other Harry Lucey story where things go CRASH-BOOM-BANG ? It looks more exaggerated than what is 'really' happening, in context, because that's just his extreme style of drawing. It's in ALL his stories, and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It's meant to make every action look FUNNIER, not more violent.

You are totally over-sensitized about this Veronica thing. She's the villain here, and she gets the tables turned on her and gets treated by Archie as HIS personal property, to show her how it feels to live under her boot heel. SHE doesn't like Archie wearing the coat Betty gave HIM -- HE doesn't like Veronica wearing the makeup Reggie gave HER. If she won't tolerate the former, then he won't tolerate the latter. Why is it so hard to see the parallel here? She kicked him in the ribs one time too many, and he's not asking her. He'll ditch the coat, but the makeup HAS to go as part of the deal. If he pleads and whines about it, and begs her to remove the makeup then the story's not funny. The humor isn't coming from what you see as him overpowering her by force. You're just reading way, WAY too much into that. Is he upset about it? Sure he is, but that's not the same as "assault", which is a complete fabrication on your part. Nobody is seeing that in this story but you. CONTEXT. It's an Archie story. It's got to be funny. Nobody involved in the production of this story is pushing male-on-female violence, or whatever you are inferring as going on here, as a good thing. Get over it, it's not there.

Quote from: Original Sin on May 06, 2016, 10:15:10 AM

Ah, I get it now. It's funny (a) because it's Archie on the receiving end of physical shtick from Veronica, so no one can accuse her of being a sexist man-hater who just likes to rough up guys, and (b) it's Archie - of course he deserves it, case closed; and (c) you never even saw her lay a finger on him, just the results.

No, honestly it's just funny because the physical shtick is part of what works about the comedy of Archie comics. Normally Veronica just gets a free pass on being on the receiving end (unless it's girl-on-girl violence) because she's pretty and rich, and her behavior is excused as "just Veronica being Veronica". Something as slight as Archie rubbing the makeup off her face with a washcloth is viewed by Daren in a different light as "misogynist man-handling" though. Is Archie just being a big sexist bully? I don't buy it. It's the same comedic context, and the same rules apply. No double standard for Veronica having "protected status" because she's a girl, and Archie isn't. He doesn't try to physically hurt her. His reaction is not particularly genteel in that instance, but Veronica didn't deserve to be treated that way after the way she treated him (as a piece of her property). He just treated her the same way, to see how she'd like it. Because it's a short, funny Archie story the makeup is removed in a couple of panels, instead of Archie and Ronnie having a serious mature discussion about how she treats him, and how it makes him feel, and how would she like it if...? It gets the point across that Archie is sick of being treated like her doormat, expected to jump whenever she barks at him. He could just refuse to change his jacket and walk out on her, but then it's not funny. No realism is needed for that ending.

It does sort of beg the logical question of why Archie didn't just use the tranquilizer spray on Veronica though, doesn't it?

Maybe he's so used to being reduced to a quivering blob of Jello whenever she gets angry at him that he was too rattled to maintain the same calm cool demeanor he had with Big Moose.

Of course the only real answer is that they had to wrap the story up on that page and needed a funny ending, and you're not supposed to be thinking about it that hard (although it's pretty hard NOT to).

Quote from: irishmoxie on May 06, 2016, 07:53:06 AM
I think the Archie archives are finally at the end of the 40s now. Hopefully we will start seeing stories from the 50s and beyond. Especially Josie and the other female characters.

After I posted that I remember the pussycats stories were in the B&V Friends digests. I believe there are still some holes regarding which stories are where so I'll try to fill those in when I have time.

It's going to be a long wait to get to JOSIE and those DeCarlo Sabrina stories from ARCHIE'S MADHOUSE, if they just keep moving forward at the pace they have been. With the first ARCHIE'S PAL JUGHEAD ARCHIVES (volume 2 due in June) they're already up to issue #8 (1951), but they haven't even scheduled a first volume of ARCHIE'S GIRLS BETTY AND VERONICA yet. Likely REGGIE would be first, anyway, chronologically speaking (I'd be anxious to get my hands on that one myself), and it would be a short run, with issues #1-14 (2 volumes) covering the years 1949 through 1954, then a big break while the title went on hiatus until #15 in September 1962. This is all assuming that they are going in strict chronological sequence. There's another 12-13 years to cover before they get to 1962 and SHE'S JOSIE #1, so my argument would be to jump ahead to the good stuff, and forego the strict chronological reprinting of all Archie titles. Fantagraphics Books took exactly that approach when doing THE CARL BARKS DISNEY LIBRARY, not proceeding in chronological order of issuing volumes in that hardcover series. The stories within each volume ARE in chronological sequence, but there's no need for the readers to read them that way, since the stories themselves aren't heavily dependent on those that came before. Why not just jump straight to 1962 with some of the better Archie material like JOSIE and proceed from there? Go back and forth and eventually fill the gaps in each series, but that way you've got a bunch of different titles proceeding ahead, each at its own pace (according to what sells best).

Quote from: Thrillho on May 05, 2016, 09:27:02 PM
Yes, another throwback thread! On throwback Thursday, no less. 

Wow, a rare Vicky Mantle appearance.

Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 04:56:40 AM
A thread for the less gentlemanly side of our titular hero, since everyone else already has their own such threads.








Okay I changed it, I didn't want anything too profane in a thread title. It doesn't express it as well but it'll do.

I just read that in B&VDD#243 yesterday. The above panel isn't even showing some particular example of bad behavior for Archie, rather it just typifies one of his defining characteristics. Girl-crazy, a horndog, a roving eye or a wastrel and a cad, whatever you choose to term it. That, and heedless of consequences. Without that particular aspect, he's not really Archie and probably wouldn't have lasted 75 years, despite him not being a role-model you'd hold up as worthy of emulation. Real people can't (usually) get away with that kind of behavior for long, because their actions have consequences, unlike in the cartoon world where everyone will like you no matter what you do, if you have an innocent face and appear to be oblivious and unintentional. In order for the readers to put up with it for 75 years, he only has to be funny.

You're trying too hard here, and being AWFULLY selective about which stories and what characters you apply laws of realism to in slapstick comedy, Daren. You don't get to apply the 21st century legal definitions of workplace violence or sexual harassment to this one story, either.

Veronica's being a spoiled little brat and essentially saying to him "NO! You're MY dolly, and I only want you dressed in Veronica Lodge brand approved accessories!"

I guess even Archie has his boiling point, since for once he doesn't react by hanging his head and saying "Whatever you say, my sweet little lambiekins. I don't know WHAT I was thinking, trying to dress myself like an adult!".

The story is about how Veronica reacts when Archie treats her the way she's used to treating him, when one day he unexpectedly stands up for himself, and stops being her complacent whipping boy. It's not about realism, it's about the shoe on the other foot, tit-for-tat. It's not "assault with a deadly washcloth". Assault is when you throw a deadly projectile (a hard piece of wood, for instance) at someone's head. ("OOOhhh... Archie, are you all right? Are you hurt? Do you have a concussion? How many fingers am I holding up?")  But it's FUNNY if Archie gets his just deserts to you, and not if Veronica gets hers. Did she hurt her pelvis when Reggie dumped her on the sidewalk? I guess it's funny if you're not Christopher Reeve. This in NOT, by the way, a Life With Archie story, or anything remotely close to it.

Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 02:55:20 AM
And ASKING someone to wear a different coat (and it IS asking no matter how bossy she was being, she has no hold over him) is very different from grabbing someone weaker than you and SCRUBBING their face forcibly.

And wearing a coat someone else gave you isn't equal to wearing makeup someone else gave you, that's hardly identifiable.

You know if Reggie did that to her people would roast him over hot coals but when Archie does it it's just awesome. Lucky that Reggie wouldn't do that to her.

He could have shown the same backbone simply by refusing to comply with her wishes, but that wouldn't have been a funny ending ("turnabout is fair play"). He doesn't physically hurt her, only embarrass her by treating her like a petulant child, which is the way she's acting. It's a washcloth, not steel wool. It's hardly even comparable to Jughead beaning Ronnie off the back of the head with a soccer ball, and everyone thought that was hilarious. Nobody even bats an eye when Veronica picks up a stray piece of wood and whips it at Archie's head, but if he wipes the makeup off her face with a wet washcloth, then he's a misogynist brute?

It hardly matters where the coat came from. It's HIS coat, and there's nothing shabby-looking or embarrassing about him wearing it. Besides, she's insulting Betty by implication that she'd give him a gift that was trashy and not worthy of being seen in public.

Sometimes Veronica needs to be taken down a peg or two, and in this case it's perfectly appropriate. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. That's guaranteed to make her think twice the next time before she makes petty demands and expects him to roll over like a good puppy dog. She'll be furious at first of course, but ultimately she'll show him more respect, and he'll have his own self-respect. I doubt Veronica would even TRY to pull that "You're not wearing that coat" snit on Reggie. Reggie only puts up with a few minutes of the kind of treatment that Archie usually endures from Ronnie on a regular basis in "They're Off!" before funtime's over and roughly dumping her on the sidewalk, and you don't get all worked up over that.

I can't believe I'm defending ARCHIE...  but most of the time he gives me little excuse to.

Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 02:44:43 AM

I don't think they meant this ending to be a slur at women, I think it's a reference to Jughead's woman hating ways even though he'd sort of grown beyond that at this point. Anyway I like this story because it's one of the rare ones where Veronica "wins" over Jughead. Kind of.

Jughead may be relationship-avoidant, but he's still firmly psychologically male in gender. At first his ego is stroked by the idea that he's become the male equivalent of what Veronica would like to be - a sought-after male model (Veronica would obviously like to be a sought-after female model), and the envy of his friends. When he discovers that the only reason he was sought-after was because his skinny wrists are not only acceptable, but preferrable, to model women's watches, his male ego is insulted and he's embarassed. He may not be attracted to women, but he doesn't want to be mistaken for one either.

Quote from: daren on May 06, 2016, 02:17:40 AM
When I see stuff like this I can understand why people say the old comics were misogynist. This doesn't belong in a Villainous Veronica thread, it belongs in a sorely needed Archie Is An A-Hole thread judging from this story and the one where she's riding Reggie, although I liked that one because how could I not?

Couldn't disagree more. It's perfectly justified in this case, no misogyny involved. Giving her a dose of her own medicine, and a wake-up call to reality by splashing water on her face. Ronnie can be a stuck-up little tart who thinks she's queen of the world. Usually Archie just complies like a whipped hound, a cowardly reaction only to stay in her good graces, but in this case he acts like a man for a change.

Quote from: 60sBettyandReggie on May 05, 2016, 11:30:42 PM
When is this Free Comic Book Day?

Saturday May 7th, 2016.

http://www.freecomicbookday.com/Home/1/1/27/992

Quote from: invisifan on May 06, 2016, 12:58:26 AM
Yes... (In Michigan)

Lake Michigan monster? Pressie of Lake Superior? Larger in mass than the blue whale? No idea, really.

Quote from: irishmoxie on May 06, 2016, 12:30:05 AM

Seems to be no more Josie after WOADD #50. Maybe they are thought she wasn't that popular after all? Or the recoloring/retouching cost was too high? Or maybe we will see her again in another digest like B&V Friends.

Thanks for the list, it's helpful. I'll save that for future reference.

The Josie (& the Pussycats) reprint section has been appearing in B&V FRIENDS DD since the beginning (#209), but it's only a 12-page section with two 5 or 6 page stories. Occasionally one of those is a pre-Pussycats Josie story, if it fits the page count.

The digital exclusive JOSIE & THE SCAREDY CATS is all '70s stories. We can sit here and wonder why ACP doesn't do the logical thing in reprinting stories, and figure that older collectors who have disposable income would jump on a series of hardcover collections, but somehow it doesn't seem to have occurred to anyone. Dark Horse is doing the most ancient Archie stories they can find, but those aren't the most attractive ones to the majority of adult Archie fans, it's the later ones from the mid-1950s to mid-1970s, especially on select titles like JOSIE. Someone will figure it out eventually, if I live that long, I guess. ACP doesn't have the money or the know-how to do high-end hardcover reprints (except if they recruit someone like Craig Yoe, as they did with their two hardcovers, The Art of Betty and Veronica, and The Art of Archie: The Covers). IDW did "the best of" Archie artists hardcover collections, and ACP did "The Best of Archie Comics" TPBs, but nobody seems to think about doing chronological Archives collections of the best series featuring the best stories and artwork, like JOSIE. Dan DeCarlo is probably THE most popular artist among the older collectors, but gee... he didn't do a huge amount of Archie stories, and Archie is the most popular character according to digest readers, so that obviously wouldn't work. DUH. Nobody buying hardcovers cares all that much about Dan's Archie or Jughead stories, comparatively speaking -- they want to see him drawing girls, like Josie, Sabrina, or Betty & Veronica.

QuoteI can hardly ever find Sabrinas locally or within a 2h drive and if I do they're always at least $10 each even in fair condition. How much does your shop charge for them?

I hope they continue the Many Loves storyline but this sounds like it's the last one?

I'm guessing about TMLoAA, based on the descriptions of the lead stories in the solicitations for issues 244 and 245 of B&VDD. Since there have already been 7 episodes up to this point, and they already did episodes featuring each of the other six girls (besides B&V) that nominated Archie for the "Boyfriend of the Year Award" mentioned in the first episode, if the series were to continue to 10 episodes (as originally projected by Dan Parent) the remaining 3 episodes would spotlight Betty in one story, Veronica in another, and then a concluding episode to wrap things up. Based on the solicitation descriptions the new lead stories in 244 and 245 don't sound like episodes of TMLoAA. That and the fact that the timing of this last episode coincides with Fernando's mention (after he turned in his last new story only to discover, to his surprise, that they had no new art assignments to offer him) that all new lead stories in the digests will be strictly limited to 5 pages from here on out, and all of the TMLoAA episodes have been 10 or more pages so far.

Those old comics were only in 'good' condition, and I found them rummaging through some $1 boxes. Occasionally (I should probably say very occasionally) I can find some SABRINAs (not the earliest ones) in less than VG condition, but rarely any JOSIEs. But mostly I only find common, lesser condition issues of almost every Archie title except the ones featuring Josie, Sabrina, Betty, Veronica, or B&V, unless it's a recent one from the last 5 years.