Quote from: irishmoxie on April 28, 2016, 11:39:52 AM
I'm curious to what other comics you consider to be similar to the new Riverdale. I might be interested in reading them.

I've read a lot of comics, and find very little of uniqueness in the two New Riverdale books. The style of art and writing/storytelling in basically the same as in most mainstream comics, but that shouldn't be all that surprising because that's why they hired those people to write and draw them. It basically looks like those pages of a superhero comic on which no superheroes appear, and it's just people walking around, talking and doing other ordinary boring-type stuff. Other mainstream comics have other elements that make them unique that I like, but those are conceptual usually, or sometimes more character-driven, but for the most part they are illustrated adventure stories, not characters that were originally designed as funny cartoons. With Archie Comics, there's just nothing about the characters themselves and their relationships that I find that intrinsically compelling apart from the style and tone, and the way it's executed. It's just like there are a dozen different styles of Batman comic books, but I don't like them all, only certain ones, according to the style and execution of it.


I like classic Archie because it's unique and not like comics produced by any other company (although other companies DID produce this type of comics in the past, and I like those too... Millie the Model, Chili, Patsy and Hedy, Date With Debbi, Leave It To Binky, Swing With Scooter, Tippy Teen, Go-Go and Animal, and others -- plus a few new ones like Die Kitty Die and Super Suckers). I like the cartooniness, the lightheartedness, the cuteness and sweetness of them. They are "comical comics". They are candy for the eyes and for the mind in the same way bubblegum rock is candy for the ears. All that is completely gone from the New Riverdale books. I'd rather read an old issue of one of those other comics I mentioned, or an old issue of some Archie comic.

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 02:39:24 PM
I appreciate all that, and loved the 50s-60s love triangle stories. But that stuff has not been funny for a long time.

I don't think Betty needs to be perfect. Back in the day, she was not this multi-talented, super-virtuous, loved-by-everybody sweet little girl. Back then she was awesome.
I am not saying I want her to become full-on crazy again, because crazy Betty was entertaining but not exactly relatable. Which is why I believe they tried to make her into a girl-next-door, and ended up creating this perfect being. That's not very relatable either.

Veronica and Betty's rivalry does not have to end. They don't just fight over Archie. They have fought each other for other boys, popularity, modelling gigs, and so many other things. Way I see it, Betty and Veronica are two women fighting for the alpha female position of their little tribe. Archie does not have to be the main reason for everything. In fact, I don't even want Betty to lose ALL interest in Archie. She can still try to steal Archie once in a while to beat her rival Veronica. Or Archie maybe one of the guys in her life.

I want Betty to become her own person, an entertaining and relatable character, whose existence does not revolve around getting Archie's approval.

Hey, you don't have to sell ME on the idea. I'm totally down with it. It pretty much gives Archie nothing left to do, but I'm okay with that. I'd be fine with the company changing its name to B&V Comics. Jughead could continue on virtually unaffected by the whole change in status quo (and maybe that's the only function left for Archie, to become Jughead's clumsy and trouble-prone sidekick and sounding board).

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 01:48:59 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 01:44:39 PM

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 01:34:14 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 01:13:22 PM

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 11:28:44 AM
Pairing someone like Betty with someone like Adam maybe nice in real life, but it's not very entertaining in a comic book setting.

And that's why she'll forever be obsessed with a guy like Archie, who isn't worth her time in real life. My point here is that Betty doesn't need anyone to "bring out her best in her". She already IS the best. She can cook, she can sew, she can fix a car. She can race cars. She can ski, surf, play baseball or basketball as well or better than any teenager. She's an A student. She can write. She reads a lot and is smart and well informed. She good at gardening, crafts, or just about any activity she tries her hand at or sets her mind to. She's pretty, in great shape, and looks good in anything she wears. She's got more talent in her little finger than Veronica has in her whole body. She's funny and fun to be with, and cares about animals and people, and about the things in life that really matter, not just the superficial stuff. Veronica has looks and money, and that's all she really needs. She's not dumb, but it wouldn't really matter if she was. She's got all she needs to get by in life. Betty wasn't born with money, but she's a real do-it-yourselfer who can make the best of any situation. She can do just about anything - except win the love of an idiot who's too dumb to appreciate her. All Betty really needs to do is realize there there are some things in life that aren't worth doing, like chasing Archie. She's just got to stop wasting her time with jerks who don't appreciate how exceptional she really is, and start dating guys who treat her how she deserves to be treated. But I guess that wouldn't be entertaining, so she dates Archie instead.

Imbibing Betty with every virtue and talent under the sun is not a good thing. She would be much more interesting if she was not so perfect.

An entertaining comic character does not necessarily have to be crazy about Archie.

And being crazy about Archie is exactly what makes her not perfect. That's the very imperfection about her that makes her fans crazy, because she'd have to be crazy to put up with him.

Yes, I agree, that's what made her entertaining back in the day, and was fodder for so many great stories. However, the love triangle has already given us everything it could have. Every possible idea that can come from it has been hashed, rehashed, reused, recycled. It ceased to be funny a long time ago.

Archie is Betty's kryptonite. Without it, she, like Superman, would be perfect. However, you don't see Superman go looking for kryptonite to weaken him. If he did, you'd have to think that there was something seriously wrong with Superman.


But here's the thing you have to realize. The entire 75-year history of Archie Comics hinges on this one, impossible, monstrously irrational premise. Without Betty's obsession for Archie, she's perfect, finds a great guy who appreciates her, lives happily (and boringly, to the readers) ever after. Veronica, without Betty to compete with over Archie, loses all interest in him. What is there about Archie to possibly interest Veronica? NOTHING. She's not interested in him, she's interested in beating Betty, because Betty's the best, and obviously the only worthy challenger to Veronica. So without that triangle, no Archie Comics.

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 01:34:14 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 01:13:22 PM

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 11:28:44 AM
Pairing someone like Betty with someone like Adam maybe nice in real life, but it's not very entertaining in a comic book setting.

And that's why she'll forever be obsessed with a guy like Archie, who isn't worth her time in real life. My point here is that Betty doesn't need anyone to "bring out her best in her". She already IS the best. She can cook, she can sew, she can fix a car. She can race cars. She can ski, surf, play baseball or basketball as well or better than any teenager. She's an A student. She can write. She reads a lot and is smart and well informed. She good at gardening, crafts, or just about any activity she tries her hand at or sets her mind to. She's pretty, in great shape, and looks good in anything she wears. She's got more talent in her little finger than Veronica has in her whole body. She's funny and fun to be with, and cares about animals and people, and about the things in life that really matter, not just the superficial stuff. Veronica has looks and money, and that's all she really needs. She's not dumb, but it wouldn't really matter if she was. She's got all she needs to get by in life. Betty wasn't born with money, but she's a real do-it-yourselfer who can make the best of any situation. She can do just about anything - except win the love of an idiot who's too dumb to appreciate her. All Betty really needs to do is realize there there are some things in life that aren't worth doing, like chasing Archie. She's just got to stop wasting her time with jerks who don't appreciate how exceptional she really is, and start dating guys who treat her how she deserves to be treated. But I guess that wouldn't be entertaining, so she dates Archie instead.

Imbibing Betty with every virtue and talent under the sun is not a good thing. She would be much more interesting if she was not so perfect.

An entertaining comic character does not necessarily have to be crazy about Archie.

And being crazy about Archie is exactly what makes her not perfect. That's the very imperfection about her that makes her fans crazy, because she'd have to be crazy to put up with him.

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 11:28:44 AM
Pairing someone like Betty with someone like Adam maybe nice in real life, but it's not very entertaining in a comic book setting.

And that's why she'll forever be obsessed with a guy like Archie, who isn't worth her time in real life. My point here is that Betty doesn't need anyone to "bring out the best in her". She already IS the best. She can cook, she can sew, she can fix a car. She can race cars. She can ski, surf, play baseball or basketball as well or better than any teenager. She's an A student. She can write. She reads a lot and is smart and well informed. She good at gardening, crafts, or just about any activity she tries her hand at or sets her mind to. She's pretty, in great shape, and looks good in anything she wears. She's got more talent in her little finger than Veronica has in her whole body. She's funny and fun to be with, and cares about animals and people, and about the things in life that really matter, not just the superficial stuff. Veronica has looks and money, and that's all she really needs. She's not dumb, but it wouldn't really matter if she was. She's got all she needs to get by in life. Betty wasn't born with money, but she's a real do-it-yourselfer who can make the best of any situation. She can do just about anything - except win the love of an idiot who's too dumb to appreciate her. All Betty really needs to do is realize there there are some things in life that aren't worth doing, like chasing Archie. She's just got to stop wasting her time with jerks who don't appreciate how exceptional she really is, and start dating guys who treat her how she deserves to be treated. But I guess that wouldn't be entertaining, so she dates Archie instead.

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 10:30:41 AM



Here's a fanart thingie I did a few years ago. Classic Betty's psycho stalkerish obsession with Archie makes her perfect for the role of the crazy ex in My Super Ex-Girlfriend.

Hey, it's just like that story where Betty realized she'd never have Archie all to herself, so she decided no one else should have him either, and tries to kill him. Several times. But she keeps just missing by that much. Funny story, but a little "out there". It was amazing the things they could get away with in the 1960s.

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 11:09:01 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 11:05:50 AM

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 11:01:17 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 10:57:11 AM

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 10:54:15 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 10:45:52 AM
What "best" is left to bring out in Betty?

Her self-respect. Spunkiness. Being a fun person whose every decision does not revolve around getting Archie's attention.

Isn't that what I said? The only thing that that's wrong about her is her obsession with Archie. Without that, she's got no problems.
Why would she get out of one black hole of a relationship just to head into another one even deeper?

Oh, i don't mean that Betty needs Reggie, she could get anyone she wanted, or be happy in her singlehood. But it's so much more fun to ship her with someone interesting like Reggie. We don't want her with some boring guy like Adam.

Betty should just drop Archie. ALL of her problems stem from her single-minded obsession with Archie. Heck, she could even date him casually once in while, as long as she felt like it. Or anyone else she felt like dating... Adam, Trev, or Sayid.

Don't forget Jason. Apparently he had a crush on Betty in some stories from the Cheryl title.

Or she could date Alexander Cabot III or Reggie. There must be a ton of decent guys lined up to date Betty, so she could afford to be picky, and not need to date the jerky ones. Wasn't that the whole point of dumping Archie in the first place?

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 11:01:17 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 10:57:11 AM

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 10:54:15 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 10:45:52 AM
What "best" is left to bring out in Betty?

Her self-respect. Spunkiness. Being a fun person whose every decision does not revolve around getting Archie's attention.

Isn't that what I said? The only thing that that's wrong about her is her obsession with Archie. Without that, she's got no problems.
Why would she get out of one black hole of a relationship just to head into another one even deeper?

Oh, i don't mean that Betty needs Reggie, she could get anyone she wanted, or be happy in her singlehood. But it's so much more fun to ship her with someone interesting like Reggie. We don't want her with some boring guy like Adam.

Betty should just drop Archie. ALL of her problems stem from her single-minded obsession with Archie. Heck, she could even date him casually once in while, as long as she felt like it. Or anyone else she felt like dating... Adam, Trev, or Sayid.

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 10:54:15 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 10:45:52 AM
What "best" is left to bring out in Betty?

Her self-respect. Spunkiness. Being a fun person whose every decision does not revolve around getting Archie's attention.

Isn't that what I said? The only thing that that's wrong about her is her obsession with Archie. Without that, she's got no problems.
Why would she get out of one black hole of a relationship just to head into another one even deeper?

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 10:40:25 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 10:30:42 AM
Subtracting her unfortunate obsession with Archie, the idea that Betty could somehow be any better than she already is boggles my mind. Reggie obviously needs a LOT of work. Talk about your impossible projects... if she couldn't change ARCHIE in all this time, what possible chance does she have of turning Reggie into a decent sort of guy?

Archie is better when he is with Veronica. He does not need Betty to change him, Betty practically enables his flakiness anyway. And, btw, when we shippers want B & R to bring out the best in each other, we don't want them to become goody-two-shoes or vestal virgins (what's the fun in that? ) If Reggie gave up his pranks and wisecracks, he wouldn't be Reggie anymore.

What "best" is left to bring out in Betty, besides getting her to give up on Archie? That's really the only thing about her that's irrational and needs fixing. As long as she's hung up on him, her self-esteem is going to suffer a boot to the head from Archie. She's got to do that for herself before she could be with anyone that was deserving of her (and that sure isn't Reggie). Yeah, happy couples are boring... but that's why they're happy.

My argument would be that Reggie doesn't need Betty. He just needs arm candy to enhance his image. He's already found his One True Love - he gazes at him every time he looks in the mirror.

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 10:26:53 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 10:16:51 AM

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 09:41:40 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 02:55:47 AM
It's just that I can easily find so many more examples of out-of-context panels for Betty and Jughead.

Not just out-of-context panels. There are plenty of in context panels, stories, and covers for Betty/Jughead. But I guess Betty/Jughead is too easy for us shippers. They are too nice to each other.

I guess that's what makes me wonder about the shippers. I want to say "You must hate Betty pretty bad to want to saddle her with this miserable jerk." Not that Archie's exactly that much better for her, but Reggie? Or is it one of those "Who-cares-he's-good-looking-so-I'm-sure-she-can-change-him" things, which of course NEVER works.

Nope, we want Betty and Reggie to bring out the best in each other.   (btw, Archie brings out the worst in Betty, and she brings out the worst in Archie. I have lots of thoughts on this subject, tell you later.    )

Subtracting her unfortunate obsession with Archie, the idea that Betty could somehow be any better than she already is boggles my mind. Reggie obviously needs a LOT of work. Talk about your impossible projects... if she couldn't change ARCHIE in all this time, what possible chance does she have of turning Reggie into a decent sort of guy?

Quote from: kassandralove on April 28, 2016, 05:51:57 AM

That was one of only about four stories written by C. J. Henderson (father of Erica Henderson) for Archie Comics. What's notable about at least a couple of these stories is that the Archie characters seem to behave out of character. Here, Reggie acting like a hero. In another, "She's Sweet Betty Cooper", Betty decides she's sick of being a 'good girl' and starts behaving badly.

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 09:41:40 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on April 28, 2016, 02:55:47 AM
It's just that I can easily find so many more examples of out-of-context panels for Betty and Jughead.

Not just out-of-context panels. There are plenty of in context panels, stories, and covers for Betty/Jughead. But I guess Betty/Jughead is too easy for us shippers. They are too nice to each other.

I guess that's what makes me wonder about the shippers. I want to say "You must hate Betty pretty bad to want to saddle her with this miserable jerk." Not that Archie's exactly that much better for her, but Reggie? Or is it one of those "Who-cares-he's-good-looking-so-I'm-sure-she-can-change-him" things, which of course NEVER works.

Quote from: Original Sin on April 28, 2016, 09:34:17 AM

Quote from: kassandralove on April 28, 2016, 05:54:51 AM


Lol off topic

Oh, it's totally on topic!

Is it just my imagination, or is Betty, more than any other character, the one most aware that there's an audience out there watching her? Panels like the one above, where she looks out at the audience and winks, or talks to no one in particular in the story (meaning, she's talking for the audience's benefit) seem more common for Betty than any of the other characters.

I think I reminded you of this last time, but you must have forgotten to update the list at that time. Sort of a fuzzy area here, melding two Archie Alterniverses together...

LITTLE ARCHIE (as Little Capt. Pureheart)
#40 - The Venomous Vixen (13)
#41 - The Mad Music Master (?)
#42 - The Attack of the Mole Men (10) [reprint in Best of Archie Comics Book 2, Archie Double Digest #260]