Quote from: Thrillho on July 01, 2016, 12:55:47 PM

Likewise with Jughead, he sets people up for self-indulgent reasons, and I know as a reader, we are supposed to cheer for him and find him clever. I remember one story where Veronica tells Jughead she will either invite Jughead or Reggie to her party, so Jughead sets up Reggie to get beat up by Moose immediately as Reggie enters the story.

Yeah if he did the things Veronica does here he probably wouldnt be punished as badly or criticized as much, hell even I wouldn't be mad at him, I hate to say it but he has charm that's like a get out of jail free card sometimes.

Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
I just remember Al Hartley wrote a story where Veronica and Reggie were evil Germans and Betty, Archie, and Jughead were the good Americans in a WWI story.

I don't see any wrong with Al making R and R German WWI villains, I think I read that story and it was no worse than the roles George Gladir and Frank Doyle gave them in their history spoofs. If it had been World War TWO that would be something else.

QuoteHe also wrote the Spire Christian Comics were Reggie date raped a girl. That made me think he might not like them much.

Okay I think I found the site that might have given you that idea. http://80pagegiant.blogspot.com/2011/09/archie-metaphors-sex-and-al-hartley.html Are those the panels?


I also found the page they come from.






In context it doesn't look like date rape. The Jughead oranges story is more like a metaphor for a guy who tells girls he loves them to get them to sleep with him, it doesn't work as analogy for rape. Besides it would make more sense for this sermon to tell girls "don't put out just because a guy says he loves you" (standard Christian warning) than to say "don't get date raped," there's no way a girl can avoid that unless she doesn't go on dates or doesn't kiss boys in cars, the other story on that site shows Al wasn't against girls going on dates and kissing boys in cars. It DOES look skeevy that Reggie's jumping on her with a sneering smile but he always drew Reggie sneering and always put characters in that pose when they're going after something they want, it probably symbolizes Reggie's a predator in the emotional not physical sense.


I just found another site where this story is discussed: http://www.toonzone.net/forums/threads/archie-goes-there-talkback.5224681/


and someone else says the same thing I'm saying, he also points out the lipstick marks on Reggie's face and the girl's appearance are probably meant to show it wasn't rape, a good point. (Then another guy says date rape victims don't always look raped and that kiss marks are just comics shorthand for sexual activity of any kind, well actually, they're just shorthand for CONSENSUAL making out, what comics would use them to convey rape? I mean you might see them in real life date rape and yeah, real victims don't always look victimized but in cartoons they do, the cartoonists tend to make sure we know what happened. Al Hartley's drawn rape victims in other stories and they did not just look bewildered with messy hair like this girl. Then this guy tries to claim Al mixed his metaphors (why?) and was "too stuck in the 50s to understand that date rape was what he was portraying", er, if he didn't understand he was portraying it then it's probably not what he was portraying. At this point I just can't take him seriously, for some reason he's hellbent on seeing the worst in Al no matter how weak his arguments are, same for the site that took those two panels out of context. I guess they're venting in revenge for all the Spire comics or something.  )


I think the most important point the other guy makes is that Al Hartley wasn't the kind of guy who would show Reggie raping someone (if ACP even would have let him, unlikely). Frank Doyle is the one who came closest to writing Reggie as an in-context date rapist, Al's portrayals of him weren't that bad.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 07:38:08 AM

But you can't take into account other stories that came AFTER this story, whether you consider there's any continuity there or not. Either you treat the story as standalone, or as having taken place before the others, where she becomes friends with Jellybean.

I'm not counting continuity from any single story here, I thought you might be so I mentioned other stories just in case. Veronica just tells some lies to get some time with a hot babysitter, she doesn't harm Jellybean especially since as Thrillho pointed out she makes sure Brad is there to help. The only really bad thing she does is telling a mean lie about the Joneses (a lie Betty and Jughead couldn't hear so it's not like their payback was really justified as far as they knew, only from our Gods eye view) and ignoring the fact that Jellybean doesn't want to go with her, although Jellybean hardly shows it, just a few expressions and grabbing Mrs. Jones once so maybe I can't even blame Veronica TOO much for that.

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Veronica really doesn't show any concern for Jellybean in THIS story. She doesn't mistreat her, but at the same time, how do we even know she's paying attention to her?

We have no reason to think she's not, besides she hired Brad to pay attention to Jellybean.

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Jellybean is just a prop here, so Veronica can meet the male nanny.

Again so what, this is what Jughead would do with Jellybean if he wanted to meet some babysitter whose family owns an all you can eat restaurant, he HAS used her to get things in other stories.

QuoteThe effect of her goldfish remark is to indicate she couldn't be bothered to attend to the more complicated needs of a tiny human.

She said she doesn't want to have children of her own because it would be too much work, sensible enough, that's not the same as saying you won't take care of any kid ever.

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I don't think she would have made it in front of Mrs. Jones, at least not after she'd gotten the idea to use Jellybean to spend time with Brad. Nor do I think if she'd said that prior to asking to take Jellybean, that Mrs. Jones would have let her. In Veronica's phone call to Mrs. Jones, Mrs. Jones already seems hesitant, as if she senses something's not quite right.

No Mrs. Jones might not let her take Jellybean in that case because then she'd know Veronica was probably lying about why she wanted to borrow her and Mrs. Jones is already suspicious because Veronica's fake excuse is stupid, if she knew the real set up Veronica had planned she probably wouldn't mind because Jellybean would be in good hands, and since Veronica has done her son so many favors in spite of Ronnie and the rest of the Lodge household putting up with so much from him and still Ronnie usually never asks him or the Jones family for ANY payback, I think Mrs. Jones would be happy to do her this one favor. But as you point out Ronnie chooses unecessary skulking around instead.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 02:36:02 PM

Even Jellybean understood exactly what Veronica meant. Note that out of the entire story, these are the only three panels where we can see her face where Jellybean appears unhappy or anxious. In the rest of the panels where we can see her face she's smiling, but in all those other panels, there's someone else around to protect her from Veronica. And there's no doubt exactly what Jellybean thinks of her. She clings to her mother as if to plead, "Please don't leave me alone with her!" Some children may be naturally shy or apprehensive that way, but clearly Jellybean isn't one of them. She recognizes Betty, Jughead, and even BRAD as people she can trust to care about her, but not Veronica.

Toddlers arent the best judges of character, Jellybean doesn't like Veronica because of the goldfish remark, but Veronica was just tactless not insulting or showing some evil flaw. Like I said Jellybean doesn't show much reaction besides looking sour, if she was afraid to go with Veronica she'd be whining or screaming, so its not a big deal.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 02, 2016, 04:41:53 PM

Quote from: invisifan on July 02, 2016, 02:15:46 PM
Nurse sharks (and others) are quite large with standard shark-appearance, but are essentially harmless ...

Great white sharks are quite large too, and essentially deadly. But since neither would fit in the Lodge family pool, I'll say neither has any bearing on this story.

How about a Caribbean reef shark. Non aggressive except when threatened and kind of looks like the one in the picture except not as fat. Mr. Lodge can give Jughead a good scare at least and if anything else happens, no liability because Mr. Lodge can say the sharks usually peaceful so Jughead must have got too hungry and attacked it.

Quote from: BettyReggie on June 28, 2016, 09:38:34 PM
If I owned Archie Comics I would hire Gabbie Gross to do a Reggie comic. She loves him.  I don't think it's fair that he doesn't have a comic while all the others do.

I missed this post or I would have replied sooner BettyReggie, I bet Gabbie would be a great choice, sadly apart from our dreams there will probably not be a Reggie title anytime soon. The woman who wrote Archie vs. Predator, Alex de Campi, suggested to ACP that she start one for him but they turned her down, either they just don't want Reggie to have a title or it's too expensive for them to make one. 

QuoteEach with a single monster the other game doesn't have.

You saved the best line for last.

I like your optimism.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on July 01, 2016, 06:34:03 AM

I think Mrs. Jones would agree that Veronica is better suited to taking care of a goldfish than she is to taking care of Jellybean. I don't think Mrs. Jones has any particular proprietary feelings about the goldfish, though.

Mrs. Jones let Veronica take care of Jellybean here and in other stories and Veronica never shows that trust to be misplaced, if Jellybean's mother doesn't know then who does, besides like I said it's just what Jughead (and most teenagers) would probably say, but just because you think you don't want kids of your own doesn't mean you can't take good care of someone else's for a few hours. (I see you edited your response so I'm editing mine; no I don't think Mrs. Jones would get upset that Veronica used Jellybean to meet a hot guy because Ronnie never mistreated Jellybean apart from making her take part in this silly ploy, but that's no different from things Jughead has done with his sister. And may I remind you again, Mrs. Jones probably has some idea of how tolerant the Lodges are of her son so she'd have some patience if only for that.

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If Veronica fails to take care of her goldfish, well then, she just flushes it down the toilet and buys a new one, the same way she does with most things she tires of.

Well if failing to take care of pets disqualifies you as a baby sitter I guess Jughead shouldn't take care of Jellybean either, did you ever see the story where he ate the pet caged bird Archie gave him? I can't think of a story where Veronica killed a pet but if that goldfish is the only thing to eat when Jughead gets hungry it's swum its last lap. 

Okay I'm checking it out again on youtube, if I like it I'll buy the dvd if it's still in print.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 30, 2016, 07:35:07 AM

Quote from: daren on June 30, 2016, 05:03:25 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 28, 2016, 03:26:54 PM
So far I've only read the preview pages online. I have to say I'm a little put off by the limited coloring choice -- to be honest, it seems a little pretentious, like it's trying to make it look less like "classic Archie" and more like "alternative comic".

I think I'll probably wait for the print edition. To tell the truth, I'm still hoping they'll reconsider and go with traditional coloring on the print version.

Come on De, if they don't sell enough of the digital version there might not be a print edition, I'll buy you a copy.

Come on, ACP has got megabuck investors now. That's why I'm scratching my head when @irishmoxie says they're pinching the pennies on this one. And (I hope this isn't the case in actuality) somehow it seems like I'm getting the impression that KEVIN is being looked at by people as something that is "fringe market" that we have to underwrite as a charity, because it's the right thing to do.

EDIT:  I actually took some time to have a good hard think about this. Here's what I came up with...

Comics are available in a lot of different formats today. Digital, floppy singles, and TPBs. Sometimes HCs, as well. And I had to mull over your theory that if they don't sell enough digital copies, there won't be a print copy. It seems to me the problem is exactly the opposite. Too many people are going to be satisfied to buy the digital copy, and there it ends for them. Why should they be required to buy it twice? They're not made of money, right? And this is coming from a guy who double-dips FAR more than is rational for a sensible person. I can't begin to even think about all the money I've spent on TPBs and HCs containing stories I'd already purchased as floppies. Digital... eh, not so much. It's not my preferred format. Nor is it reasonable for a comic book publisher to expect consumers to purchase the same story twice -- but ACP consumers somehow can't even avoid that. How many times have I read the SAME story over again in another digest or TPB? Again, FAR more than is the case for any other comic book publisher that I can think of.

But to get to the point here... It's PRINT that needs your charity as a comic book fan, not digital. Digital has practically zero overhead for the publisher other than the payments to the creators. PRINT has LOTS more overhead, with printers and distributors that have to be paid. If the creators have already been paid, the only question is whether the printers and distributors can be paid. They certainly won't be getting that money from the people who bought digital, were happy with that, and moved on to newer digital comics. And again -- they shouldn't be depending on people to buy it twice. That's an unreasonable and unrealistic expectation. Some people have already given up on print, and moved on. I'm not one of them. So I guess that's where my true loyalties lie. IF it turns out that the TPB is solicited, and then cancelled, THEN I'll consider buying digital -- if print isn't an option, but it's not my preference, and I have to make that known somehow.

I wasn't thinking of charity, I just want ACP to put out the TPB and they might not do that if the digital version doesn't sell, no matter how much money they have now.

I think Ethel might be more in love with being in love, than in love with Jughead.

I did make a thread for Mr. Lodge here but it was more for his moments of rage, this story is more cold blooded. 

Yeah they keep deleting my facebook posts. 


I didn't have anyone in mind when I made the plant suggestion, I just know it's something companies do to generate buzz on message boards/social media, but all this talk lately made me take a good look at the posts here and yes there is no way it's not the same person making at least some of these identities, they use the same writing style and general technique. I would swear it's a plant, maybe not hired just for this but possibly someone who already works for ACP and is doing double duty, it doesn't make sense that anyone would just do this for fun. Irishmoxie is right that they talk about missing classic Archie and all that but that's what they need to do to get us on their side before they subtly shift gears and start saying things like everyone should like what they want to and keep an open mind, etc.

Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 12:35:29 PM

Quote from: daren on June 30, 2016, 04:33:15 AM

Yeah, and even stranger that Al Hartley wrote it. I think that MUST be miscredited, I can't believe he would put that in there!

I wondered if it was him; it looked like his art. I'm not that surprised that he would give Veronica the bird. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he usually go out of his way to portray Reggie and Veronica negatively or find a way to punish them?

Al Hartley? Not from what I've seen, of course most writers of that era portrayed Reggie and Veronica very negatively but Al Hartley wasn't extra bad, the main writers George Gladir and Frank Doyle were much worse than him about it. Frank Doyle most of all, Al Hartley never portrayed Reggie as a racist or borderline sexual predator and Frank Doyle is the one who made Veronica an evil villain in the '60s. And George Gladir made them do some real crap, I just read a story where he had Reggie trying to spear a dolphin, lmao, because he wanted to catch something fishing. Actually some of their dirty rotten evil stories were funny and I'm glad Fank Doyle made Veronica a bad girl just because I like villains even if he took it too far, but yeah, Al Hartley was tame by comparison, I think only Joe Edwards and maybe Bob Bolling wrote them more mildly than him out of that era of writers.

I don't know what happened to the comments I posted on this thread yesterday, I should have checked it afterward I guess, but anyway. The ending doesn't bother me because Veronica did make the mean crack about the Joneses so it wasn't TOO much worse for Jughead to lie about her, and in this story Betty does seem close to Jellybean more than Veronica (and Veronica uses Jellybean even though she should be able to see Jellybean doesn't like her) so even though she's just as underhanded as Veronica here it's okay with me that she comes out ahead.


But I don't agree that Betty's ethical violations are usually treated more harshly than Veronica's, if anything it's the other way around especially in Dan Parent's stories, maybe because he likes Veronica more he holds her to a higher standard or something, I also don't see anything wrong with Veronica's goldfish remark and it's the EXACT kind of thing Jughead would say so I think Mrs. Jones would just laugh if she heard it. Besides Jughead's pulled so many uncalled for stunts on Veronica that Veronica has obviously never told her own parents about, I think he must appreciate that in a reciprocal way.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 30, 2016, 06:24:30 AM
These are some good ideas. I'd like to see some others in the mix as well. Possibly toss in Adam as well, as the ex-boyfriend who still has feelings for "just friends" Betty. You already mentioned Chic, but Polly should be in there as well. Betty's the only character with older siblings, and I'd like to see her relationship with them explored some more, plus both characters are good potential generators of plots and subplots. A little more expansion on Betty's relationship with her parents, as well, both as individuals and as a family unit. Toss a few more gal pals in as well, like Tomoko, Midge and Nancy, and maybe explore a little rivalry between Betty and new kid Chloe Mancuso. Both of them are achievers and involved in a lot of school activities.

Yeah Betty gets along well with almost all the girls so I would want them to be there, same for her parents and Polly since her family is important to her. I don't remember Chloe and Adam but some rivalry for Betty and her boyfriends would be good.

Quote
Oh, without a doubt, Trula has GOT to be in there. I like bringing back Uncle Herman (the original) and Souphead as well, and exploring his wacky and eccentric relatives, both historic and present day (along with Uncle Herman). Then there's the OTHER side of Jughead's family, the side with the other Uncle Herman (last name never revealed) and cousin Bingo Wilkin -- if only we can establish what Gladys and Wilma's maiden name and Herman's last name is. They should occasionally visit, or Jughead visit them. I definitely want Toni Topaz in there too. I can see some potential for interesting stories involving her, Jughead, Trula and/or Ethel (which might be the world's only four-way love quadrangle involving a possible asexual). The detective thing can be a reoccuring plotline to break up Jughead's more "normal" (for whatever that's worth in reference to Jughead) routine. Maybe add a couple of new characters to the supporting cast, as well.

Well...I cant say I'm a fan of the "cousin Bingo" idea, I think the best thing might be to just ignore it instead of trying to make it work although your idea of two uncles is better than how they tried to pass off Bingo's Uncle Herman as Jughead's Uncle Herman.  The four way love quadrangle featuring a possible asexual though, that I can get behind. 

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But... WHAT ABOUT MIDGE ?? Only half-kidding. It may be played-out or too impolitic for the Moose/Midge\Reggie triangle in the 21st century -- unless there's a new wrinkle to dig up. It's already old hat unless there's something NEW to be added. Dirty tricks and pranks - a thing of the past? Somehow I feel there should be a Reggie the schemer/dreamer/manipulator angle in here somewhere. It just seems a little too bland if you make him TOO nice. WHAT ABOUT HARPER ??

I'm not a big fan of Reggie/Midge but their triangle stories are funny as long as Moose doesn't get TOO violent, yeah they can't get away with what they used to, but he can still chase him around and maybe we could learn more about Midge to add the new wrinkle. For dirty tricks I was thinking he would play them on his family/Chuck/Nancy/Moose/Midge    why not? I thought it would be hard to have Harper show up since she lives far away and Reggie would be playing the field, I also was thinking of Harper being more in Veronica's title but maybe she could show up for some Reggie stories.

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The "learning about the family business" angle is a good one. Don't forget that Veronica loves to play as well, so she needs to jet off to Milan or Paris or Hong Kong every so often and "live la dolce vita". A lot of these stories can be about Veronica learning some kind of life lesson (without getting too preachy about it -- this would be mostly character-building scenarios). Otherwise I'm liking the general premise. What about BOYS?

Yeah I think she should jet set around too and learn life lessons but I hadn't thought of any guys because she has so many relationships with guys in regular Archie, it might be refreshing if we didn't see her with any, at least for a while but there could be some romance sometime...

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Archie's desperate enough for money to volunteer himself as a human guinea pig. That seems both plausible for his character, as well as something that could generate a lot of funny situations, plus I really like Dilton, and would like to see him appearing somewhere on a regular basis. I like the part where you added "lots of girls".  Maybe some of those plots could be Archie trying to help Dilton out in the relationship department, with decidedly mixed results.

Good points, I think the stories where Archie tries to help Dilton might end up with Dilton helping Archie though.


Well now I'm bummed they won't be getting their own titles but what the hey, what other directions do you think they could go in?