I think we get a LOT of people who come in, read/post in every single thread... and then having nothing new to say. So they get bored and leave. A lot of them come off as very young, and if people don't engage them immediately, they get tired of it and leave.

Then there's a couple of argumentative posters who can probably turn people off by reading into their posts and going after innocent things. In some cases, the person deserved being attacked (remember that guy who got all mad because he was called-out for being rude? Or the friggin' creepy "Do you think Ariel would like it if she had a beating heart outside her body?" kid?).

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 27, 2016, 10:35:47 AM
Yes, she did. More often than not, you'll see her working on ARCHIE's car -- which is famously in frequent need of repair. While I'm pretty sure you can trace this rationale back to whatever was the first story where Betty worked on Archie's car, I'll simply refer you to BETTY #19 (Nov. 1994), as that's an issue (Part II of the "Love Showdown" crossover which ran in 4 issues: ARCHIE #429, BETTY #19, BETTY AND VERONICA #82, and VERONICA #39), that's not only one of the most easily accessible stories, but because it spells things out for you in black & white.

Yeah, I know she's used mechanics to try and win Archie's favor- that's "Betty 101" right there (I've read a dozen stories where she does just that). I'm just questioning your theory that she learned it JUST to win over Archie. I mean, Betty's all into Women's Lib and junk, and that's like the least-feminist thing ever . It seems clear that's more of a hobby of hers (she's seen working on cars with her dad a lot, too- he probably got her into cars) that she's WILLING to use in her favor.

QuoteBetty is naturally superior to Archie in just about every way, especially in the thinking department. I just don't think you really understand a few things about Betty. While the Coopers certainly raised her right, and gave her a kind-hearted and optimistic outlook on life, virtually everything Betty has done with her life so far has been motivated largely by (a) her obsession with Archie, and (b) her competitiveness with Veronica. Betty is the hands-on, do-it-yourself type. She's smart enough to recognize that there are some areas in which Veronica has insurmountable advantages. She's also smart enough to realize that she has to take advantage of any areas in which Veronica is weak, areas in which her brains, willingness to work hard to accomplish a goal, and natural talents outclass Veronica in every way. She can't compete with Veronica's financial resources, her ability to buy her way to solutions to her problems. Betty has to use talent, brains, and sheer determination to overcome Veronica's advantages that come from wealth and the ability to manipulate boys using her natural sexual attractiveness. Not to say that Betty's any less attractive, but she's honest, straightforward and above-board in all her dealings -- manipulation isn't her strong suit, nor her natural inclination.

Yes, I agree- this is more "Betty 101". Everyone who reads Archie should know this.

QuoteShe's got to IMPRESS the boys. The sports thing is a way to do that, because she's got fewer female competitors who can measure up to her ability in that area. Truth to tell, few boys are as good as she is, either. You don't think boys NOTICE her because of it? That's not to say she doesn't enjoy doing those things, like it's some odious task that she hates and is only doing for the results it's going to get her. But is IS the thing that is Betty's general motivation for doing MANY of the things she does, not just sports. Cooking and baking as well.

I really don't see Betty having learned sports to win boys. She's got a natural competitive streak, and is all about making herself better (with or without the attention of others)- I find this assertion that she did so very weird. I've read tons of stories where her being good at sports is either something people don't know about (ie. she never bragged or showed off), or where she deliberately pretends to be worse so that Archie can fell like more of a man (sometimes she actually manipulates him into "showing her how it's done", despite being better at it herself!). I've also read tons of stories where she leads the girls to whup on the boys in order to teach them a lesson about chauvinism. I've never seen her use sports to try to win boys over. If anything, that's often a NEGATIVE against her interactions with boys, because she spends all this time obsessing over self-perfection, while Veronica walks away with the boys.

Now, the BAKING? Yeah, she's all about leading Archie astray via brownies .

I dunno- I find your assertions a bit odd, and you seem to be obsessing over this/taking it a bit personally (and "How this can possibly have escaped someone's perception about Betty, I don't really understand." is something I find disrespectful). Since I don't want to aggravate you further, and since I can't remember whether or not you're one of the people on here with Asperger's or Autism (I'd rather not pick on someone like that), I'll let the matter drop.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 26, 2016, 05:11:03 AM

Maybe it's because I have absolutely no interest in sports myself, but know of many women who do. Generally they are the active type participants in sports, not the sit-on-the-couch-watching-the-game-on-the-tube type. Which is definitely the case with Betty, who takes part in many sports herself, but isn't overly competitive with some kind of driving need to dominate and win (Reggie), which is the only trait associated with sports that I'd define as masculine. Betty likes sports because she enjoys the physical challenge and keeping herself in good physical condition (to be attractive to boys... duh). When she plays against Archie, she often lets him win (unless she's setting him up to win a bet in the form of a date with him). Then there are several stories I've seen where Betty plays the role of the typical "sports widow" or commiserates with the other girls in sharing the same fate. Is she "energetic and sometimes boisterous"? Absolutely. But so are Veronica, Midge, and Nancy. You pretty much just described the basic requirements to make the cut for the cheerleading squad (that and physical conditioning). Are cheerleaders all viewed as "tomboys"? I'd argue that they aren't.  You know why Betty learned auto mechanics? Not so much for any inherent interest in mechanical things on her own part, but simply as a means to an end (dating Archie, of course).

Betty learned auto mechanics to win Archie? I don't think I've ever seen a story so much as imply that- more often than not you'll see her work on the car with her dad with or without Archie. It's rather weird to think of Betty only engaging in these kinds of activities just to win boys. And VERY against the message the comics try to send across with stories featuring Betty playing sports or doing "guy stuff" (ie. their point is that "See? You can do this too! It doesn't make you any less of a girl!" and not "See? You can pretend to enjoy this crap too, and then boys will like you!").

[/size]

Quote[/size][size=78%]Virtually everything she does and everything she thinks is done from a female perspective. If you want to know who the real tomboys are, just look at their bedrooms, that would be the dead giveaway. Betty's bedroom is full of stuffed animals, craft items she's made, her diary, scrapbooks filled with sentimental stuff, and other books (she likes romance novels), and has pictures of Archie and various male heart-throbs covering the walls. She enjoys participating in various sports but they don't dominate her thoughts. Sorry, but I'm just not seeing anything the slightest bit "masculine" about Betty.[/size]

Yeah, she's into the girly stuff too- the contrast in the Greasemonkey Lady Jock thing combined with the Diary-Writing Dress-Making Domestic Goddess is part of why I like modern Betty. Heck- there's a story in which Betty & Archie try the "Duo Surfing" thing, and find that Archie's too weak to lift Betty for the stunts- instead, Betty lifts ARCHIE. More than one story has her as his physical superior (which is a pretty "masculine" trait). And heck- compare her to Veronica- Betty can be all about the flowers and the dresses, but only one of the two looks natural in torn-up jeans and a backwards baseball cap.

Ooh, thought of another one:

Big Ethel- Part 1: A) The psychotic, obsessive, "Lena Hyena"-esque stalker out to tackle Jughead and force kisses upon him, or B) Modern-day "sadly mooning over the boy who doesn't like her" Ethel.

Big Ethel- Part 2: A) Old-school, hideous Ethel, or B) Modern-Day, Pretty Ethel.




---

Personally, I prefer "A" in both cases. Having her be "B" actually makes Jughead into a nasty jerk, when his reactions to "A" are more understandable. It's also FUNNIER, which is important in a comedy series. Also, I find the whole "prettying up Ethel" thing to be against the point of the joke, and reeks of Archie's "No Ugly Characters" weirdness, where they determined that only hot people are funny (when the opposite is closer to true).

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 25, 2016, 05:11:38 PM

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 25, 2016, 04:06:50 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 20, 2016, 03:41:18 AM

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 20, 2016, 01:46:28 AM
BETTY COOPER: A) The scheming, somewhat-dim loser ('40s & '50s); B) The All-Around Girl-Next-Door Nice Girl Tomboy (most eras)

I really HATE it when someone refers to Betty as a tomboy. Sure, she likes sports, and is good at most of them, and she can fix a car or play videogames. That doesn't make her a tomboy, just talented.

To me tomboy implies a girl that gives no thought to typically "feminine" things, like hairstyles, makeup, clothes/fashion/shopping, looking pretty, romantic movies and books, domestic stuff like cooking/baking, sewing, artsy/crafty stuff, etc. Betty cares a lot about what guys think of her and whether they find her attractive, and all things "girlie" like drooling over male celebrities, gossiping with her gal-pals, and so on.

It always sounds to me like Betty's getting slagged simply for being capable of doing something as well as a guy can. She's NOT a tomboy. She's just what they call in England "sporty".

What tomboy means is thus: "an energetic, sometimes boisterous girl whose behavior and pursuits, especially in games and sports, are considered more typical ofboys than of girls."

It doesn't mean "never does anything feminine ever", nor is it an insult. I also included the "Girl-Next-Door" comment, because Betty is truly a MIX of both things. She's sporty, athletic, tough and can fix cars- all "tomboy" traits. But she can and has worn dresses and been the "nice girl" archetype, right down to domestic pursuits.

Both Betty's Wikipedia page and http://christinculture.com/archie-relaunch/]This article and this other one casually refer to her as, and argue for her to BE, a "tomboy", and I don't think that's inaccurate.

Well, that is ONE definition. By which it would mean that over half the women in the world are tomboys. Which to me, makes it kind of a meaningless distinction. Any woman interested in sports is a tomboy? Preposterous. Maybe by some antiquated 1940s view of gender roles, but certainly not in THIS century. That said, not all definitions are in agreement with the one you cite.

The other, more stringent definition would be that a tomboy isn't defined simply by her interest in some typically male things, but by that AND her LACK of interest in typically female things. Simply put, Betty's interest in typically feminine things FAR outweighs her interest in typically male things. She's not a female genetically (sexual orientation being a moot point here) with a predominantly masculine mental perspective and interests, although such females definitely exist, but they are the rare exception.

And further to the point, interest in sports is nowhere near the exclusive domain of males that it was more than half a century ago.
By YOUR chosen definition of tomboy, I DO consider it an insult, as it implies that gender roles should remain at some kind of standstill arbitrarily decided upon sometime in the last century.

Should I call a man who is interested in fashion or cooking, a "tamgirl"? Let's see, what would be the actual opposite-gender equivalent here?  I think the term "girly-man" would be pretty close. Yes, it's insulting, as calling Betty a boy is an insinuation that she's somehow less than 100% female, or lacking in some way in the kind of traits that a male partner would find ideal in a woman.

*shrug* I've never considered the term an insult, and I know plenty of women who's admitted to being tomboys. If anyone takes offense to it, that's their hang-up.

And the definition (which I got from Webster's Dictionary, btw) says "considered more TYPICAL of boys than girls", not "traditional" or "correct" or whatever- it's not loaded with any kind of hidden "You should behave in THIS manner!" coding. It's perfectly okay to act atypical. I'm a 35-year old male who keeps Ever After High and Disney Fairies toys right next to my Dino Riders & Transformers stuff, and doesn't care a lick about sports- trust me in that I'm not about to judge people for not catering to some societal expectation of their own gender .

---

Betty is, of course, a girly-girl AND a tomboy, which is what I meant by "Girl Next Door Tomboy" (in retrospect, I should have just SAID THAT). And, bringing this back to the topic, that's how I see Betty- at home either with the culinary arts, at the school dance, or being a grease-monkey fixing a transmission. I see a lot of her in Sailor Jupiter from Sailor Moon- equal parts feminine & masculine-"typical" traits, combined to make a very fascinating character. Though I wish some of the manic nature of 1950s Betty would come about today- sure she was psychotic, but some of that can be fun .

My opinions:



ARCHIE: A) The scheming bastard of the 1940s; B) The befuddled, clumsy loser of most other eras; C) The all-around nice guy.

I like B. Archie should CONSTANTLY be scheming, and not be the milquetoast he later became. But "C" is going too far. Earlier eras of Archie are a bit too unsympathetic, though.

JUGHEAD: A) The woman-hating, somewhat-vicious schemer of the old days- constantly belittled and insulted women; B) The Jughead seen in the NUMEROUS "Jughead gets a girl" storylines (Joanie & Debbie, Anita Chavita, Sandy Sanchez, etc.); C) The anti-romance character who can still hang out with women (such as his friendship with Betty).

I prefer "C"- he fits in better with the rest of the gang, and Jughead/Betty is one of the more-fun character interactions out there.



VERONICA: A) Straight-up selfish villainess ('40s & Mark Waid Reboot); B) The Jerk with a Heart of Gold character (mostly seen in and after the '60s); C) The nicer, more down-to-earth one of the '90s-2000s era (where her major conflicts are things like figuring out which charity to pursue).

"B"- Ronnie can thus hang out with the group, but carries a nasty edge that gets commented upon. The later version seems WAY too nice most of the time (she's basically a nice character who hates Jughead- not exactly what made people like Veronica to begin with).

BETTY COOPER: A) The scheming, somewhat-dim loser ('40s & '50s); B) The All-Around Girl-Next-Door Nice Girl Tomboy (most eras)

Yeah, I don't really care for most of the "A" Betty, even if the older strips were usually funnier. She's a bit too manic and insane.



REGGIE MANTLE: A) Outright villain whom just about everyone hates; B) Jerk With a Heart of Gold, who still hangs out with the gang.

I can waver on this one. He interacts well with the rest of the gang, so they should at least tolerate him. But "A" is SO MUCH BETTER FOR SOME STORIES.

CHERYL BLOSSOM: A) The super-selfish and obnoxious villain ('80s & her return); B) Veronica-Lite "Actually deep-down really nice" character (from her solo book).

"A"- I find the "B" version to be ridiculous, as we ALREADY HAVE THAT EXACT CHARACTER. Cheryl in her own book essentially turned into Veronica II, but with more of a "Star-Seeking" thing.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 20, 2016, 03:41:18 AM

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 20, 2016, 01:46:28 AM
BETTY COOPER: A) The scheming, somewhat-dim loser ('40s & '50s); B) The All-Around Girl-Next-Door Nice Girl Tomboy (most eras)

I really HATE it when someone refers to Betty as a tomboy. Sure, she likes sports, and is good at most of them, and she can fix a car or play videogames. That doesn't make her a tomboy, just talented.

To me tomboy implies a girl that gives no thought to typically "feminine" things, like hairstyles, makeup, clothes/fashion/shopping, looking pretty, romantic movies and books, domestic stuff like cooking/baking, sewing, artsy/crafty stuff, etc. Betty cares a lot about what guys think of her and whether they find her attractive, and all things "girlie" like drooling over male celebrities, gossiping with her gal-pals, and so on.

It always sounds to me like Betty's getting slagged simply for being capable of doing something as well as a guy can. She's NOT a tomboy. She's just what they call in England "sporty".

What tomboy means is thus: "an energetic, sometimes boisterous girl whose behavior and pursuits, especially in games and sports, are considered more typical ofboys than of girls."

It doesn't mean "never does anything feminine ever", nor is it an insult. I also included the "Girl-Next-Door" comment, because Betty is truly a MIX of both things. She's sporty, athletic, tough and can fix cars- all "tomboy" traits. But she can and has worn dresses and been the "nice girl" archetype, right down to domestic pursuits.

Both Betty's Wikipedia page and http://christinculture.com/archie-relaunch/]This article and this other one casually refer to her as, and argue for her to BE, a "tomboy", and I don't think that's inaccurate.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 17, 2016, 06:49:58 AM
Jabroniville is referencing a fairly recent (2013) warts-and-all (totally unauthorized) company history, MARVEL COMICS: THE UNTOLD STORY by Sean Howe. An excellent book, by the way, that gives us more of an unvarnished picture of events in that company's history. While there are laws written to prevent slander and libel, there are none preventing people from telling the truth. If the Disney/Marvel legal department couldn't stop Sean Howe from writing a book, what do you think ACP's chances would be?

Of course, Marvel & Disney are unlikely to want the bad publicity associated with going after a piece of journalism. ACP seems to have no such restrictions holding them back- they have a tendency to go after people who merely PARODY them.

It's generally been known to happen that the Archie characters have shifted greatly over the years- often becoming much nicer (and perhaps more well-rounded) characters at the expense of conflict and humor. Whether or not this is a good thing is a matter of debate.

So I'm curious as to which version of the following characters do you prefer?



ARCHIE: A) The scheming bastard of the 1940s; B) The befuddled, clumsy loser of most other eras; C) The all-around nice guy.


JUGHEAD: A) The woman-hating, somewhat-vicious schemer of the old days- constantly belittled and insulted women; B) The Jughead seen in the NUMEROUS "Jughead gets a girl" storylines (Joanie & Debbie, Anita Chavita, Sandy Sanchez, etc.); C) The anti-romance character who can still hang out with women (such as his friendship with Betty).


VERONICA: A) Straight-up selfish villainess ('40s & Mark Waid Reboot); B) The Jerk with a Heart of Gold character (mostly seen in and after the '60s); C) The nicer, more down-to-earth one of the '90s-2000s era (where her major conflicts are things like figuring out which charity to pursue).


BETTY COOPER: A) The scheming, somewhat-dim loser ('40s & '50s); B) The All-Around Girl-Next-Door Nice Girl Tomboy (most eras)


REGGIE MANTLE: A) Outright villain whom just about everyone hates; B) Jerk With a Heart of Gold, who still hangs out with the gang.


CHERYL BLOSSOM: A) The super-selfish and obnoxious villain ('80s & her return); B) Veronica-Lite "Actually deep-down really nice" character (from her solo book).

Quote from: Fernando Ruiz on June 10, 2016, 10:27:12 PM

Quote from: irishmoxie on June 10, 2016, 09:46:08 PM

Also Fernando said something about how he had ghost written (used another name?) some stories for ACP after this one so we may see those eventually.

I ghost-wrote those scripts for another Archie comics writer-artist. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who that is! I think they might be close to coming out very soon.


Archie Comics, of course, now hates me because unlike Dan DeCarlo and Stan Goldberg, after they drove me out, I didn't conveniently drop dead. In a very petty move, they said I could no longer ghost-write for them anymore.


They have a horrible, horrible reputation for their treatment of their talent. Trust me. Every bit of it is deserved.

Wow, that sucks. I figured Mark Waid was right when he said that Archie mistreated everybody (his specific complaint was that they paid people very little while sucking up all of the profits of the company for themselves)... but he neglected to mention that they're STILL doing it.


We still totally need Archie Comics: The Untold Story- a huge collection of the history of the company, written by a third party and taking viewpoints from EVERYBODY. Alas, so many of the old names are deceased at this point. But it'd still be more accurate than that one from a couple years ago, where the company's co-founder was apparently a giant ladies' man who ALWAYS had two girls fighting over him, just so that he could lay a claim over Bob Montana's .

Tokyo, Japan. Especially their Disney Parks .

It probably doesn't help the show's chances that Hart has become a kind of joke in Hollywood- she was INFAMOUSLY nasty during the filming of Sabrina (there's a reason her "dorky friend" kept changing over the years), and she got a lot of egg on her face when her Patreon project (aka "fund my stupid vanity project for me!") failed to earn nearly enough money.

Quote from: Gisele on May 06, 2016, 03:54:00 PM

Quote from: Jabroniville on May 02, 2016, 12:53:40 AM
* Funny: Gisele's at the Archie group of tables, yet most of her stuff is themed towards Menage A 3, which is TOTALLY not going for the same target audience . My brother is a big MA3 reader, and even jumped in with a question. She drew some nice sketches in the books I got from her, too. And she did eventually get to meet T. Campbell, her Penny & Aggie co-creator, after the strip had finally ended.

I had all of the work I did for Archie & more on display. I just haven't done that much for Archie. The little I've done is liked but I couldn't stand there with barely nothing at my table, so yeah, I'm gonna push my own work as well as the Archie work. I tried my best to keep the Ma3 stuff up high, and properly rated, so kids wouldn't get to it.

Yeah, I figured as much. Fiona Staples's table was mostly Saga-related, so you weren't the only one. It's totally understandable. And you weren't the only one with risque content- Dan Parent's art book has some... noticeable sketches in it as well  .

Quote from: daren on May 02, 2016, 02:35:19 AM

Quote from: Jabroniville on May 02, 2016, 01:26:43 AM

Bob Crane also did a very good "disheveled Jughead".

Bob Crane?

Sorry- meant Doug Crane.

Everyone at Central High. A school filled entirely with cheaters.