Quote from: daren on June 25, 2016, 01:45:29 AM

from DA by "crunkFONICAS", feels like there's more to it somewhere doesn't it?

Lol, I've seen that one before and I inferred that Jughead was gay though. I mean, Veronica doesn't exactly have a working gaydar.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 25, 2016, 06:11:52 AM

Ah, but this isn't the first Veronica/Jellybean story, it's the second (or possibly even the third). In the first one, Veronica doesn't like Jellybean because she thinks that she's just like a little Jughead. Nevertheless, it doesn't prevent Veronica from trying to exploit Jellybean's innate cuteness when she tries to babysit her as an excuse to get an "in" with a hunky male nanny that she meets in the park. In that one, Jughead finds out what's going on, and with Jellybean as an accomplice, teaches Veronica a well-deserved lesson.

The above story is kind of sweet, because after Jellybean senses that Veronica has learned her lesson, she only torments her a little bit for good measure -- sort of like the guys busting on each other in camaraderie -- before deciding that she's a good egg after all, and she actually likes her. After that, Jellybean isn't willing to go along with her brother's dirty tricks. Just goes to show Jellybean has a mind of her own.

What exactly did Veronica do wrong in this story to warrant "being taught a lesson"? She was right Jughead was out to get her through Jellybean.

Furthermore, there is no continuity in the Archie-verse, not even with the same writers. Each story is self-contained and has no bearing on any others. "Beach Blanket Babysitters" was published in 2010 and it didn't acknowledge a 2003 story where Veronica and Jellybean are already close, "Hey Sister."







They're both written by Dan Parent but the second one contradicts the first. They were already friends and liked each other.

All we know in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" is that Jughead influenced Jellybean to be anti-Veronica for no apparent reason other than he wants to mess with her.

Quote from: BettyReggie on June 25, 2016, 09:50:15 AM
Jughead & Veronica still seem to hate each other in the reboot of Archie & the new reboot of Jughead. Will get along in Adam Hughes version of Betty & Veronica. Probably not.

I wonder what Mark Waid is going to do with them. They haven't really interacted aside from a look and offhand comments from Veronica. You would think they have something to talk about considering he used to be super spoiled rich too. It's pretty obvious why Jughead would dislike Veronica but there's no apparent reason why she would dislike him considering she's trying to make things with Archie work. I think the best chance for interaction would be Archie's book. Betty & Veronica probably doesn't have any room for Jughead yet, unless Hughes is making Jughead Betty's confidant but I don't see Jughead really becoming a part of that book.

Quote from: Thrillho on June 25, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
What exactly did Veronica do wrong in this story to warrant "being taught a lesson"? She was right Jughead was out to get her through Jellybean.

Furthermore, there is no continuity in the Archie-verse, not even with the same writers. Each story is self-contained and has no bearing on any others. "Beach Blanket Babysitters" was published in 2010 and it didn't acknowledge a 2003 story where Veronica and Jellybean are already close, "Hey Sister."

They're both written by Dan Parent but the second one contradicts the first. They were already friends and liked each other.

All we know in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" is that Jughead influenced Jellybean to be anti-Veronica for no apparent reason other than he wants to mess with her.

I'm sure I have "Beach Blanket Babysitters" in a collection somewhere, but I can't remember where now. And since you didn't post the entire story, I can't remember exactly how it started now or what it was that changed Jellybean's mind about Veronica and made her decide that she was her friend after all. Let's remember here that Jellybean is just a child too, who's just having some innocent fun, and perhaps being a little mischievous as well. Let's not forget the point of the story, which is that Jellybean is capable of making her own choices, and isn't just some kind of puppet for Jughead to use to carry out his will.

As far as continuity is concerned, you're mistaken about there not being ANY between stories in Archie Comics. Sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn't. In most cases where there is, a footnote will alert the reader to the prior story, but just because there isn't a footnote, I don't assume no continuity unless there's a direct contradiction that seems to say otherwise. I'm thinking specifically about a couple of B&V Christmas stories ("Jingles All the Way" and "Holiday Watch") featuring both Jingles (and his human guise of Jimmy) and Sugar Plum (and her human guise as Summer), which appeared almost a year apart and ARE connected (and a footnote tells you so). In the next story in which the two characters appear together, there's no continuity with the prior two stories -- and all of them are by Dan Parent.

I assumed in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" that it was referencing the first story where Veronica basically uses Jellybean for selfish reasons to cast herself in a favorable light as a caring person who loves children (when the opposite is the true case, in reality, in that first story), and that Jellybean was somehow remembering that. I didn't read "Hey Sister" in the order it came out, I read it as a reprint, so I wasn't really sure where it fit vis-a-vis the other two Jellybean/Veronica stories. There's yet another Veronica/Jellybean story involving Mr. Lodge (who turns out to be a collector of valuable old PEZ dispensers, one of which Jellybean takes a fancy to) as well, and I think that's the one I was thinking of as the second story.

Quote from: Thrillho on June 25, 2016, 12:04:21 PM

Quote from: daren on June 25, 2016, 01:45:29 AM

from DA by "crunkFONICAS", feels like there's more to it somewhere doesn't it?

Lol, I've seen that one before and I inferred that Jughead was gay though. I mean, Veronica doesn't exactly have a working gaydar.

Okay looking at this picture again I think you might be right, my gaydar doesn't work either!

Quote

Archie is so confusing with its off/on continuity. What a cute story though, I like that Jughead didn't just yell at her to get out (not that he could, with all the time he spends at her house) and his parents tried to be nice about it too.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 25, 2016, 01:28:09 PM

I'm sure I have "Beach Blanket Babysitters" in a collection somewhere, but I can't remember where now. And since you didn't post the entire story, I can't remember exactly how it started now or what it was that changed Jellybean's mind about Veronica and made her decide that she was her friend after all. Let's remember here that Jellybean is just a child too, who's just having some innocent fun, and perhaps being a little mischievous as well. Let's not forget the point of the story, which is that Jellybean is capable of making her own choices, and isn't just some kind of puppet for Jughead to use to carry out his will.

As far as continuity is concerned, you're mistaken about there not being ANY between stories in Archie Comics. Sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn't. In most cases where there is, a footnote will alert the reader to the prior story, but just because there isn't a footnote, I don't assume no continuity unless there's a direct contradiction that seems to say otherwise. I'm thinking specifically about a couple of B&V Christmas stories ("Jingles All the Way" and "Holiday Watch") featuring both Jingles (and his human guise of Jimmy) and Sugar Plum (and her human guise as Summer), which appeared almost a year apart and ARE connected (and a footnote tells you so). In the next story in which the two characters appear together, there's no continuity with the prior two stories -- and all of them are by Dan Parent.

I assumed in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" that it was referencing the first story where Veronica basically uses Jellybean for selfish reasons to cast herself in a favorable light as a caring person who loves children (when the opposite is the true case, in reality, in that first story), and that Jellybean was somehow remembering that. I didn't read "Hey Sister" in the order it came out, I read it as a reprint, so I wasn't really sure where it fit vis-a-vis the other two Jellybean/Veronica stories. There's yet another Veronica/Jellybean story involving Mr. Lodge (who turns out to be a collector of valuable old PEZ dispensers, one of which Jellybean takes a fancy to) as well, and I think that's the one I was thinking of as the second story.

To reiterate:

Quote from: Thrillho on June 25, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
All we know in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" is that Jughead influenced Jellybean to be anti-Veronica for no apparent reason other than he wants to mess with her.

There is no editors note, no call-backs (except Jug and Ron's tension) and I'm not going to do any mental gymnastics to try to justify that Veronica did something to warrant Jughead and Jellybean's pranks and I highly doubt Archie Comics or Dan Parent expects us to remember every story and connect them all together without an editor's note. All daren and I noticed was that Jughead tends to mess with Veronica without provocation more likely than she is, though the vast majority of Jughead vs Veronica stories tend to have them go at it in a response to something.

I didn't want to post the whole story as the focus was not on Veronica and Jellybean's relationship but Jughead and Veronica's but here's the beginning anyway.





And we're shown that Veronica was right, Jughead was influencing Jellybean before she had formed her own opinion of Veronica.

Thanks for posting the other part. Jughead turned Jellybean into a little brat, almost gave Leroy a run for his money! I agree that usually we can't count on continuity to justify payback like in this case but frustratingly the writers sometimes do. 


Sometimes Jughead's proxies do his work without him meaning them to...

Quote from: daren on June 28, 2016, 01:59:46 AM

I have read this story before and I can't believe I didn't notice what Jughead said.  Sometimes I'm surprised what Archie gets away with.

Quote from: Thrillho on June 27, 2016, 05:35:21 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 25, 2016, 01:28:09 PM

I'm sure I have "Beach Blanket Babysitters" in a collection somewhere, but I can't remember where now. And since you didn't post the entire story, I can't remember exactly how it started now or what it was that changed Jellybean's mind about Veronica and made her decide that she was her friend after all. Let's remember here that Jellybean is just a child too, who's just having some innocent fun, and perhaps being a little mischievous as well. Let's not forget the point of the story, which is that Jellybean is capable of making her own choices, and isn't just some kind of puppet for Jughead to use to carry out his will.

As far as continuity is concerned, you're mistaken about there not being ANY between stories in Archie Comics. Sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn't. In most cases where there is, a footnote will alert the reader to the prior story, but just because there isn't a footnote, I don't assume no continuity unless there's a direct contradiction that seems to say otherwise. I'm thinking specifically about a couple of B&V Christmas stories ("Jingles All the Way" and "Holiday Watch") featuring both Jingles (and his human guise of Jimmy) and Sugar Plum (and her human guise as Summer), which appeared almost a year apart and ARE connected (and a footnote tells you so). In the next story in which the two characters appear together, there's no continuity with the prior two stories -- and all of them are by Dan Parent.

I assumed in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" that it was referencing the first story where Veronica basically uses Jellybean for selfish reasons to cast herself in a favorable light as a caring person who loves children (when the opposite is the true case, in reality, in that first story), and that Jellybean was somehow remembering that. I didn't read "Hey Sister" in the order it came out, I read it as a reprint, so I wasn't really sure where it fit vis-a-vis the other two Jellybean/Veronica stories. There's yet another Veronica/Jellybean story involving Mr. Lodge (who turns out to be a collector of valuable old PEZ dispensers, one of which Jellybean takes a fancy to) as well, and I think that's the one I was thinking of as the second story.

To reiterate:

Quote from: Thrillho on June 25, 2016, 12:04:21 PM
All we know in "Beach Blanket Babysitters" is that Jughead influenced Jellybean to be anti-Veronica for no apparent reason other than he wants to mess with her.

There is no editors note, no call-backs (except Jug and Ron's tension) and I'm not going to do any mental gymnastics to try to justify that Veronica did something to warrant Jughead and Jellybean's pranks and I highly doubt Archie Comics or Dan Parent expects us to remember every story and connect them all together without an editor's note. All daren and I noticed was that Jughead tends to mess with Veronica without provocation more likely than she is, though the vast majority of Jughead vs Veronica stories tend to have them go at it in a response to something.

Well, whatever works for you guys. When I'm reading these stories, I'm not necessarily analyzing when and where they may have been published. I don't read an Archie digest, finish the story, and then go look it up on the GCDb to try to place it in context of the company's publishing history. Sometimes I'll do that later for select character appearances, but indexing is spotty. Ironically, the day I read your reply was the same day that B&V FRIENDS COMICS ANNUAL #249 had come in the mail, so I got to read "Beach Blanket Babysitters" again -- they reprinted the story again in that issue. Weird synchronicity, huh?

The other thing is that when I read all three of the stories, there just seemed to be a logical continuity there between the first one (blanking on the title here) where Veronica used Jellybean as an unwitting accomplice, in trying to make a good impression on the hunky male nanny she met in the park, and it ticked Jughead off when he discovered it. Then I happened to read "Beach Blanket Babysitters" not too long afterwards, and it just seemed like a logical progression from the first story. The "mental gymnastics" involved amounted to me thinking "Oh yeah, there was that story where Veronica babysat Jellybean... THAT didn't end too well for her", instead of reading her say "Her brother has poisoned her mind against me" and me thinking "Uh... well THAT sounds just a little cray-cray..."  (because I'm not as nice as Betty, who just says "That's just silly.") ... Yeah, and slightly insane, too, considering that she says this before anything has even happened in THIS story.

So in order for me to believe that Veronica is more or less interacting with Jellybean for the first time here, I need to believe not only that she's totally paranoid when it comes to Jughead, but that Jughead carefully instructed a toddler to put sand in Veronica's sandwich, throw cold sand on her, bury her up to her neck in sand, and then put a plastic spider in the middle of her forehead. And HOW exactly does Jughead know that Veronica's going to be going to the beach with Betty the day that Betty was scheduled to babysit Jellybean? I sort of have to wonder how Jughead is so omniscient that he knows that Veronica is going to decide to take a nap on the beach, giving his remotely controlled puppet a chance to do his dirty work by burying her, too. The only thing we know for a fact here is that Jughead gave Jellybean a plastic spider. Jellybean could have told him what she did with it afterwards. I guess he could have suggested that she use it to play a trick on Veronica (assuming Betty had informed him well in advance that she planned to take Jellybean to the beach that day, and was taking Veronica along, too) "in response to something". Frankly, it's a lot easier to believe that the prior story happened, and Jellybean didn't like Veronica because of that.

Then there's the other one where Veronica's genuinely interested in Jellybean for herself, and just because she's cute -- she wishes she had a little sister like her, and gets obsessed and is spending too much time at the Jones' house, which naturally seems to take place after "Beach Blanket Babysitters", where Ronnie and Jellybean become friends, and Veronica followed Betty's suggestion to "introduce her (Jellybean) to your world". Something she's continuing to do in the story where she's spending so much time at the Jones house. So it's a little like connect-the-dots when you're just reading whole bunches of these stories trying to catch up with years worth of the company's publishing efforts. "Oh yeah, it seems like this one came before that one, and the other one seems like it came after." Sure, if you read them exactly the way they came out, it's going to seem a lot different, with sometimes huge gaps of time between stories.

Meanwhile, when I read Archie stories I don't read too much into them, and since there is no clear continuity--with some exceptions--I can only take it all at face value so arguing this is pointless.

I do have the story you keep referring to in relation to "Beach Blanket Babysitters", "Oh, Nanny Boy"








Veronica's lie about the Jones' was terrible but I don't really see how she is any worse than Betty who would have done the same.

Quote from: Thrillho on June 28, 2016, 11:37:58 PM

Quote from: daren on June 28, 2016, 01:59:46 AM

I have read this story before and I can't believe I didn't notice what Jughead said.  Sometimes I'm surprised what Archie gets away with.

Yeah, and even stranger that Al Hartley wrote it. I think that MUST be miscredited, I can't believe he would put that in there!

Quote from: Thrillho on June 29, 2016, 07:13:50 PM
Veronica's lie about the Jones' was terrible but I don't really see how she is any worse than Betty who would have done the same.

Thanks for posting that. Again, it's one I know I have in a collection somewhere... but ??

I guess the only mitigating factor/ethical difference for Betty is that she and Jellybean have a relationship already, and they genuinely like one another. Betty might be using her a little bit here, but she loves spending time with Jellybean anyway, so really she's not trying to trick this guy into thinking she's compassionate and caring when she isn't (unlike Veronica, who doesn't even really like Jellybean in this story).

Quote from: daren on June 30, 2016, 04:33:15 AM

Yeah, and even stranger that Al Hartley wrote it. I think that MUST be miscredited, I can't believe he would put that in there!

I wondered if it was him; it looked like his art. I'm not that surprised that he would give Veronica the bird. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he usually go out of his way to portray Reggie and Veronica negatively or find a way to punish them?

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 30, 2016, 07:29:47 AM

Quote from: Thrillho on June 29, 2016, 07:13:50 PM
Veronica's lie about the Jones' was terrible but I don't really see how she is any worse than Betty who would have done the same.

Thanks for posting that. Again, it's one I know I have in a collection somewhere... but ??

I guess the only mitigating factor/ethical difference for Betty is that she and Jellybean have a relationship already, and they genuinely like one another. Betty might be using her a little bit here, but she loves spending time with Jellybean anyway, so really she's not trying to trick this guy into thinking she's compassionate and caring when she isn't (unlike Veronica, who doesn't even really like Jellybean in this story).

Regardless of being compassionate or caring, she is still using Jellybean and she would still have to make up a lie like Veronica did to get the hot nanny to come over and stay.

I do wonder what happens when Nanny Boy finds out the truth, that Betty set up Veronica to look like a kidnapper to get a date with him.

Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
I do wonder what happens when Nanny Boy finds out the truth, that Betty set up Veronica to look like a kidnapper to get a date with him.

I don't know about that. Looks to me, if I read it right, that's all on Jughead. A bit over the top on the overacting there. Did something happen in between that panel where Betty says "We should get Jellybean back. It's late" and when Veronica phoned Mrs. Jones to "borrow" Jellybean? How did Betty set her up to do that? Were mirrors involved? Why would Betty call Mrs. Jones and ask to take Jellybean if she knew Veronica had her? Other than that, it seems like Betty didn't actually DO anything. The fact that she benefits from Jughead's "rescue" of the "kidnapped" Jellybean is immaterial. She doesn't have some kind of mind-control powers to make people do what she wants them to. Nope, it's all Jughead from what I see there. Betty may have alerted him to the fact that Veronica had Jellybean, but then again it might have been Mrs. Jones who told him (he does live there) -- hard to say, the story doesn't tell us that. Appears to me that the real winner here is Jughead. I do kind of wonder how he explained to his mother why he was bringing Jellybean home instead of Veronica. It's a mystery, I guess.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 30, 2016, 02:16:07 PM

Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
I do wonder what happens when Nanny Boy finds out the truth, that Betty set up Veronica to look like a kidnapper to get a date with him.

I don't know about that. Looks to me, if I read it right, that's all on Jughead. A bit over the top on the overacting there. Did something happen in between that panel where Betty says "We should get Jellybean back. It's late" and when Veronica phoned Mrs. Jones to "borrow" Jellybean? How did Betty set her up to do that? Were mirrors involved? Why would Betty call Mrs. Jones and ask to take Jellybean if she knew Veronica had her? Other than that, it seems like Betty didn't actually DO anything. The fact that she benefits from Jughead's "rescue" of the "kidnapped" Jellybean is immaterial. She doesn't have some kind of mind-control powers to make people do what she wants them to. Nope, it's all Jughead from what I see there. Betty may have alerted him to the fact that Veronica had Jellybean, but then again it might have been Mrs. Jones who told him (he does live there) -- hard to say, the story doesn't tell us that. Appears to me that the real winner here is Jughead. I do kind of wonder how he explained to his mother why he was bringing Jellybean home instead of Veronica. It's a mystery, I guess.

I'll concede Betty probably didn't come up with the kidnapping angle but once she found out Veronica was pulling the same scheme she wanted to, she conspired with Jughead to make Veronica look bad and get the nanny for herself. Why else would she be hanging around the Lodge mansion and thanking Jughead, saying she owes him? This story was also featured in a Betty vs. Veronica digital collection signifying that this is a Betty/Veronica conflict, not Jughead/Veronica.

Quote from: Thrillho on June 30, 2016, 10:05:39 PM
I'll concede Betty probably didn't come up with the kidnapping angle but once she found out Veronica was pulling the same scheme she wanted to, she conspired with Jughead to make Veronica look bad and get the nanny for herself. Why else would she be hanging around the Lodge mansion and thanking Jughead, saying she owes him? This story was also featured in a Betty vs. Veronica digital collection signifying that this is a Betty/Veronica conflict, not Jughead/Veronica.

Jughead's already chomping at the bit to "do it again". Can't say I have much sympathy for Veronica here, either. Veronica is expected to be imperfect, so the severity of any ethical violations she commits is reduced, while Betty, on the other hand IS expected to be perfect, so the severity of any ethical violations SHE commits are treated that much more harshly. On the other hand, no credit is given to the fact that Betty cares about and loves Jellybean. Veronica couldn't care less about her in this story, only about herself and what she can gain from Jellybean. Why do you think Jughead LIKES Betty, but DISlikes Veronica? The REAL crime here is that Veronica has deceived Mrs. Jones into believing that she's leaving her daughter with a responsible and loving caregiver. Betty, on the other hand, isn't expected to behave like a normal teenager at all -- she's expected to be inhumanly perfect, and immune to her natural attraction to Brad. Since that's pretty much typical behavior for Veronica, she gets excused.

What was the proper ethical course of action for Jughead to take when he learned of the situation?
1. Do nothing. What's done is done. Take it under advisement, and don't allow Veronica to sit with Jellybean in the future.
2. Alert Mrs. Jones to what's going on, and let her deal with the situation. (THAT actually might have been interesting. Certainly more dramatic, but not as funny.)
3. Go and collect Jellybean on some pretext, but don't embarrass Veronica.

You COULD argue that by not telling his mother, and instead merely embarrassing Veronica in front of Brad, Jughead has actually let Veronica off lightly. I wonder what would have happened if Jughead had used his Time Police Beanie to go back to that moment in the park where Betty and Veronica were talking, and used a camcorder to record Veronica's comment about "I'll stick to goldfish! They're less work!" and showed it to Mrs. Jones? I'm pretty sure Mrs. Jones would have gone ballistic on Veronica if she could have seen THAT. Even just telling her what happened, of course Mrs. Jones is going to take Jughead and Betty's version of the story over Veronica's version. Consider Mrs. Jones' phone conversation with Veronica... "But you just SAW her this afternoon!" -- Mrs. J. seems to dimly sense that something is not quite kosher here, but doesn't listen to her motherly instinct -- "Well, OKAY! For a little while!". NOW how do you think she's going to react when she learns WHY Veronica wanted to take Jellybean?

On the other hand, how would Mrs. Jones react if Betty admitted that the reason she called and asked to take Jellybean that evening was that she wanted to have an excuse to spend some time with Brad? Mrs. Jones was a teenager once too, and knowing as she does that Betty really DOES care about Jellybean, helps ameliorate the ethical crime here. How would YOU feel if it were your child?