Well B for both of them but I don't think she's ever been pretty.

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 26, 2016, 03:45:41 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 25, 2016, 05:11:38 PM

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 25, 2016, 04:06:50 PM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 20, 2016, 03:41:18 AM

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 20, 2016, 01:46:28 AM
BETTY COOPER: A) The scheming, somewhat-dim loser ('40s & '50s); B) The All-Around Girl-Next-Door Nice Girl Tomboy (most eras)

I really HATE it when someone refers to Betty as a tomboy. Sure, she likes sports, and is good at most of them, and she can fix a car or play videogames. That doesn't make her a tomboy, just talented.

To me tomboy implies a girl that gives no thought to typically "feminine" things, like hairstyles, makeup, clothes/fashion/shopping, looking pretty, romantic movies and books, domestic stuff like cooking/baking, sewing, artsy/crafty stuff, etc. Betty cares a lot about what guys think of her and whether they find her attractive, and all things "girlie" like drooling over male celebrities, gossiping with her gal-pals, and so on.

It always sounds to me like Betty's getting slagged simply for being capable of doing something as well as a guy can. She's NOT a tomboy. She's just what they call in England "sporty".

What tomboy means is thus: "an energetic, sometimes boisterous girl whose behavior and pursuits, especially in games and sports, are considered more typical ofboys than of girls."

It doesn't mean "never does anything feminine ever", nor is it an insult. I also included the "Girl-Next-Door" comment, because Betty is truly a MIX of both things. She's sporty, athletic, tough and can fix cars- all "tomboy" traits. But she can and has worn dresses and been the "nice girl" archetype, right down to domestic pursuits.

Both Betty's Wikipedia page and http://christinculture.com/archie-relaunch/]This article and this other one casually refer to her as, and argue for her to BE, a "tomboy", and I don't think that's inaccurate.

Well, that is ONE definition. By which it would mean that over half the women in the world are tomboys. Which to me, makes it kind of a meaningless distinction. Any woman interested in sports is a tomboy? Preposterous. Maybe by some antiquated 1940s view of gender roles, but certainly not in THIS century. That said, not all definitions are in agreement with the one you cite.

The other, more stringent definition would be that a tomboy isn't defined simply by her interest in some typically male things, but by that AND her LACK of interest in typically female things. Simply put, Betty's interest in typically feminine things FAR outweighs her interest in typically male things. She's not a female genetically (sexual orientation being a moot point here) with a predominantly masculine mental perspective and interests, although such females definitely exist, but they are the rare exception.

And further to the point, interest in sports is nowhere near the exclusive domain of males that it was more than half a century ago.
By YOUR chosen definition of tomboy, I DO consider it an insult, as it implies that gender roles should remain at some kind of standstill arbitrarily decided upon sometime in the last century.

Should I call a man who is interested in fashion or cooking, a "tamgirl"? Let's see, what would be the actual opposite-gender equivalent here?  I think the term "girly-man" would be pretty close. Yes, it's insulting, as calling Betty a boy is an insinuation that she's somehow less than 100% female, or lacking in some way in the kind of traits that a male partner would find ideal in a woman.

*shrug* I've never considered the term an insult, and I know plenty of women who's admitted to being tomboys. If anyone takes offense to it, that's their hang-up.

And the definition (which I got from Webster's Dictionary, btw) says "considered more TYPICAL of boys than girls", not "traditional" or "correct" or whatever- it's not loaded with any kind of hidden "You should behave in THIS manner!" coding. It's perfectly okay to act atypical. I'm a 35-year old male who keeps Ever After High and Disney Fairies toys right next to my Dino Riders & Transformers stuff, and doesn't care a lick about sports- trust me in that I'm not about to judge people for not catering to some societal expectation of their own gender .

---

Betty is, of course, a girly-girl AND a tomboy, which is what I meant by "Girl Next Door Tomboy" (in retrospect, I should have just SAID THAT). And, bringing this back to the topic, that's how I see Betty- at home either with the culinary arts, at the school dance, or being a grease-monkey fixing a transmission. I see a lot of her in Sailor Jupiter from Sailor Moon- equal parts feminine & masculine-"typical" traits, combined to make a very fascinating character. Though I wish some of the manic nature of 1950s Betty would come about today- sure she was psychotic, but some of that can be fun .

Maybe it's because I have absolutely no interest in sports myself, but know of many women who do. Generally they are the active type participants in sports, not the sit-on-the-couch-watching-the-game-on-the-tube type. Which is definitely the case with Betty, who takes part in many sports herself, but isn't overly competitive with some kind of driving need to dominate and win (Reggie), which is the only trait associated with sports that I'd define as masculine. Betty likes sports because she enjoys the physical challenge and keeping herself in good physical condition (to be attractive to boys... duh). When she plays against Archie, she often lets him win (unless she's setting him up to win a bet in the form of a date with him). Then there are several stories I've seen where Betty plays the role of the typical "sports widow" or commiserates with the other girls in sharing the same fate. Is she "energetic and sometimes boisterous"? Absolutely. But so are Veronica, Midge, and Nancy. You pretty much just described the basic requirements to make the cut for the cheerleading squad (that and physical conditioning). Are cheerleaders all viewed as "tomboys"? I'd argue that they aren't.  You know why Betty learned auto mechanics? Not so much for any inherent interest in mechanical things on her own part, but simply as a means to an end (dating Archie, of course). To the degree that she shares in any male interests, everything she does is with an ulterior motive. She's crazy like a fox, and a little bit of an amateur psychologist in that way, because she believes the way to get friendly with and get to know boys is to try to understand how they think and share in their interests, join in on their conversation. Virtually everything she does and everything she thinks is done from a female perspective. If you want to know who the real tomboys are, just look at their bedrooms, that would be the dead giveaway. Betty's bedroom is full of stuffed animals, craft items she's made, her diary, scrapbooks filled with sentimental stuff, and other books (she likes romance novels), and has pictures of Archie and various male heart-throbs covering the walls. She enjoys participating in various sports but they don't dominate her thoughts. Sorry, but I'm just not seeing anything the slightest bit "masculine" about Betty.

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 26, 2016, 03:49:30 AM
Ooh, thought of another one:

Big Ethel- Part 1: A) The psychotic, obsessive, "Lena Hyena"-esque stalker out to tackle Jughead and force kisses upon him, or B) Modern-day "sadly mooning over the boy who doesn't like her" Ethel.

Big Ethel- Part 2: A) Old-school, hideous Ethel, or B) Modern-Day, Pretty Ethel.

Don't forget about the "Busybody" Ethel, who either poked her nose into everybody else's bee's wax, or the gossipy Ethel who liked to be a catalyst of trouble between couples...

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 20, 2016, 01:46:28 AM
It's generally been known to happen that the Archie characters have shifted greatly over the years- often becoming much nicer (and perhaps more well-rounded) characters at the expense of conflict and humor. Whether or not this is a good thing is a matter of debate.

So I'm curious as to which version of the following characters do you prefer?



ARCHIE: A) The scheming bastard of the 1940s; B) The befuddled, clumsy loser of most other eras; C) The all-around nice guy.


JUGHEAD: A) The woman-hating, somewhat-vicious schemer of the old days- constantly belittled and insulted women; B) The Jughead seen in the NUMEROUS "Jughead gets a girl" storylines (Joanie & Debbie, Anita Chavita, Sandy Sanchez, etc.); C) The anti-romance character who can still hang out with women (such as his friendship with Betty).


VERONICA: A) Straight-up selfish villainess ('40s & Mark Waid Reboot); B) The Jerk with a Heart of Gold character (mostly seen in and after the '60s); C) The nicer, more down-to-earth one of the '90s-2000s era (where her major conflicts are things like figuring out which charity to pursue).


BETTY COOPER: A) The scheming, somewhat-dim loser ('40s & '50s); B) The All-Around Girl-Next-Door Nice Girl Tomboy (most eras)


REGGIE MANTLE: A) Outright villain whom just about everyone hates; B) Jerk With a Heart of Gold, who still hangs out with the gang.


CHERYL BLOSSOM: A) The super-selfish and obnoxious villain ('80s & her return); B) Veronica-Lite "Actually deep-down really nice" character (from her solo book).

The Archie I think is best to me should be a combination of B and C.

Jughead is C to me.

Ronica? B, but I don't mind a little C....

Betty to me is definitely B, but once in awhile I've seen an A in Today's Betty against Ronica, and that's okay to me...

Reggie is an A, but like Ronica, I can see him having an occasional B...

I like Archie who seems a little simple but everything workouts for him. I like it when Betty has a backbone & stand up for herself. When she can't get a date she doesn't let that get her down. There's other fish in the sea. I like the kind hearted Veronica, there's a example, she saw a little girl shopping in a store & her mother couldn't afford the dress the girl wanted go wear for her birthday so Veronica told the cashier that she would pay it & so lets keep it a secret. I like it when Jughead confides in Betty. I love the sweet Reggie that was in Life With Archie issues. He & Betty were a couple. And really a great boyfriend. I loved the Cheryl was in her 37 issues.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 26, 2016, 05:11:03 AM

Maybe it's because I have absolutely no interest in sports myself, but know of many women who do. Generally they are the active type participants in sports, not the sit-on-the-couch-watching-the-game-on-the-tube type. Which is definitely the case with Betty, who takes part in many sports herself, but isn't overly competitive with some kind of driving need to dominate and win (Reggie), which is the only trait associated with sports that I'd define as masculine. Betty likes sports because she enjoys the physical challenge and keeping herself in good physical condition (to be attractive to boys... duh). When she plays against Archie, she often lets him win (unless she's setting him up to win a bet in the form of a date with him). Then there are several stories I've seen where Betty plays the role of the typical "sports widow" or commiserates with the other girls in sharing the same fate. Is she "energetic and sometimes boisterous"? Absolutely. But so are Veronica, Midge, and Nancy. You pretty much just described the basic requirements to make the cut for the cheerleading squad (that and physical conditioning). Are cheerleaders all viewed as "tomboys"? I'd argue that they aren't.  You know why Betty learned auto mechanics? Not so much for any inherent interest in mechanical things on her own part, but simply as a means to an end (dating Archie, of course).

Betty learned auto mechanics to win Archie? I don't think I've ever seen a story so much as imply that- more often than not you'll see her work on the car with her dad with or without Archie. It's rather weird to think of Betty only engaging in these kinds of activities just to win boys. And VERY against the message the comics try to send across with stories featuring Betty playing sports or doing "guy stuff" (ie. their point is that "See? You can do this too! It doesn't make you any less of a girl!" and not "See? You can pretend to enjoy this crap too, and then boys will like you!").

[/size]

Quote[/size][size=78%]Virtually everything she does and everything she thinks is done from a female perspective. If you want to know who the real tomboys are, just look at their bedrooms, that would be the dead giveaway. Betty's bedroom is full of stuffed animals, craft items she's made, her diary, scrapbooks filled with sentimental stuff, and other books (she likes romance novels), and has pictures of Archie and various male heart-throbs covering the walls. She enjoys participating in various sports but they don't dominate her thoughts. Sorry, but I'm just not seeing anything the slightest bit "masculine" about Betty.[/size]

Yeah, she's into the girly stuff too- the contrast in the Greasemonkey Lady Jock thing combined with the Diary-Writing Dress-Making Domestic Goddess is part of why I like modern Betty. Heck- there's a story in which Betty & Archie try the "Duo Surfing" thing, and find that Archie's too weak to lift Betty for the stunts- instead, Betty lifts ARCHIE. More than one story has her as his physical superior (which is a pretty "masculine" trait). And heck- compare her to Veronica- Betty can be all about the flowers and the dresses, but only one of the two looks natural in torn-up jeans and a backwards baseball cap.

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 27, 2016, 05:29:40 AM

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 26, 2016, 05:11:03 AM

Maybe it's because I have absolutely no interest in sports myself, but know of many women who do. Generally they are the active type participants in sports, not the sit-on-the-couch-watching-the-game-on-the-tube type. Which is definitely the case with Betty, who takes part in many sports herself, but isn't overly competitive with some kind of driving need to dominate and win (Reggie), which is the only trait associated with sports that I'd define as masculine. Betty likes sports because she enjoys the physical challenge and keeping herself in good physical condition (to be attractive to boys... duh). When she plays against Archie, she often lets him win (unless she's setting him up to win a bet in the form of a date with him). Then there are several stories I've seen where Betty plays the role of the typical "sports widow" or commiserates with the other girls in sharing the same fate. Is she "energetic and sometimes boisterous"? Absolutely. But so are Veronica, Midge, and Nancy. You pretty much just described the basic requirements to make the cut for the cheerleading squad (that and physical conditioning). Are cheerleaders all viewed as "tomboys"? I'd argue that they aren't.  You know why Betty learned auto mechanics? Not so much for any inherent interest in mechanical things on her own part, but simply as a means to an end (dating Archie, of course).

Betty learned auto mechanics to win Archie? I don't think I've ever seen a story so much as imply that - more often than not you'll see her work on the car with her dad with or without Archie.

Yes, she did. More often than not, you'll see her working on ARCHIE's car -- which is famously in frequent need of repair. While I'm pretty sure you can trace this rationale back to whatever was the first story where Betty worked on Archie's car, I'll simply refer you to BETTY #19 (Nov. 1994), as that's an issue (Part II of the "Love Showdown" crossover which ran in 4 issues: ARCHIE #429, BETTY #19, BETTY AND VERONICA #82, and VERONICA #39), that's not only one of the most easily accessible stories, but because it spells things out for you in black & white.



Specifically, on pages 4 through 6 of the story. To recap briefly: In Part I, Betty and Veronica discover that Archie is swooning over some mystery love letter he received, and B&V demand to know who it's from. Both girls already have the suspicion that the mystery letter came from the other. Archie's reply is delayed by a gust of wind that whips the letter out of his hand, and the girls charge off in pursuit of it. After chasing it through a series of obstacles, they just miss retrieving the letter before it lands in a burning ashcan. Meanwhile, Archie has decided to play the mystery letter to his advantage, but when Reggie learns of it, he separately tells both Veronica, and then Betty, that the other girl wrote the mystery love letter. The former BFFs have a falling-out, and want nothing to do with each other. It's all-out war between the two.

On page 4 of BETTY #19, Mr. Cooper gives her two tickets to the Lodge Foundation's Summer Charity Dance, hoping that Betty will get Archie to go with her, to get her over the foul mood she's been in since she broke up her friendship with Veronica. She calls Archie to ask, and making small talk, asks what he's been up to. He tells her he's been trying to fix his car, but "Uhhh... I'm not the most mechanically-minded person in the world..." Betty says she's free tomorrow night, maybe she could come over and take a look at it. Archie says that'd be great, but he's not going to be home. Betty says that's okay, she'll still come and look at his car as long as he agrees to go to the Summer Charity Dance with her. Archie says "Sounds like a deal I can't pass up!"

PAGE 5
Panel 1: Betty: "Not only will I impress Archie by fixing his car, but then we'll go to the dance together!"
Panel 3: [NEXT DAY...] Mrs. Cooper: "What are you doing, Betty?" (She has her nose stuck in a book.) Betty: "A little trouble-shooting for Archie's car problems!"
Panel 4: Betty: "I got the manual for his model car to try to figure out what the problem is and how to fix it!"
Panel 5: Mr. Cooper: "If you want some practice on a newer model, I could use a brake job!" Betty: "Very funny, Dad! But I'm doing this to show Archie I'm much more practical to have around than Veronica!"
Panel 6: Mrs. Cooper: "Whatever happened to the helpless act?!" Betty: "This is the '90s, Mom! A guy likes a girl who rolls up her sleeves and lends him a hand!"

PAGE 6
Panel 1: Betty grabs a toolbox and is leaving: "See you two later! I've got a job to do!" Mrs. Cooper (to Hal): "Do you think the hospital gave us Mr. Goodwrench's baby by mistake?"
Panel 2: Archie is in his yard, working on his car, with the hood up, as Betty arrives, toolbox in hand. Betty: "Hi, Arch! How are you doing?" Archie: "Not too good! This thing still has me stumped..."
Panel 3: Betty: "Well, I've been doing a little studying and I think I know what your problem is!" Archie: "You've got to be kidding!"
Panel 4: Betty is removing the air cleaner: "A-HA! Just as I thought!"  Archie: "What is it?"
Panel 5: "Your fuel pump's got too much pressure at the carburetor! ...I'll just have to make a few adjustments..."  Archie is just gazing at her as she works, wide-eyed: "I just love it when you talk mechanical!" [voice from off-panel]: "Unhand that boy, you grease-monkey!"
Panel 6: Sure enough, it's... "VERONICA!?!" Betty looks surprised. Veronica: "I've got dibs on him tonight!"
And so it goes...

But you see what Betty did there. She learns that Archie has a problem. She'll do anything to impress him, and to get him to promise to go to the dance with her. She's intelligent and resourceful, not to mention determined, and not afraid to get her hands dirty, if it accomplishes her goal, which is getting a date with Archie. So she gets the manual for Archie's car and studies it (she IS an "A" student, and a quick study). In the course of a day, she's studied that car manual so thoroughly that she thinks she already has an idea of what Archie's problem might be, and it turns out she was right.

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 27, 2016, 05:29:40 AM
It's rather weird to think of Betty only engaging in these kinds of activities just to win boys. And VERY against the message the comics try to send across with stories featuring Betty playing sports or doing "guy stuff" (ie. their point is that "See? You can do this too! It doesn't make you any less of a girl!" and not "See? You can pretend to enjoy this crap too, and then boys will like you!").

[/size]

Quote[/size][size=78%]Virtually everything she does and everything she thinks is done from a female perspective. If you want to know who the real tomboys are, just look at their bedrooms, that would be the dead giveaway. Betty's bedroom is full of stuffed animals, craft items she's made, her diary, scrapbooks filled with sentimental stuff, and other books (she likes romance novels), and has pictures of Archie and various male heart-throbs covering the walls. She enjoys participating in various sports but they don't dominate her thoughts. Sorry, but I'm just not seeing anything the slightest bit "masculine" about Betty.[/size]

Yeah, she's into the girly stuff too- the contrast in the Greasemonkey Lady Jock thing combined with the Diary-Writing Dress-Making Domestic Goddess is part of why I like modern Betty. Heck- there's a story in which Betty & Archie try the "Duo Surfing" thing, and find that Archie's too weak to lift Betty for the stunts- instead, Betty lifts ARCHIE. More than one story has her as his physical superior (which is a pretty "masculine" trait). And heck- compare her to Veronica- Betty can be all about the flowers and the dresses, but only one of the two looks natural in torn-up jeans and a backwards baseball cap.

Betty is naturally superior to Archie in just about every way, especially in the thinking department. I just don't think you really understand a few things about Betty. While the Coopers certainly raised her right, and gave her a kind-hearted and optimistic outlook on life, virtually everything Betty has done with her life so far has been motivated largely by (a) her obsession with Archie, and (b) her competitiveness with Veronica. Betty is the hands-on, do-it-yourself type. She's smart enough to recognize that there are some areas in which Veronica has insurmountable advantages. She's also smart enough to realize that she has to take advantage of any areas in which Veronica is weak, areas in which her brains, willingness to work hard to accomplish a goal, and natural talents outclass Veronica in every way. She can't compete with Veronica's financial resources, her ability to buy her way to solutions to her problems. Betty has to use talent, brains, and sheer determination to overcome Veronica's advantages that come from wealth and the ability to manipulate boys using her natural sexual attractiveness. Not to say that Betty's any less attractive, but she's honest, straightforward and above-board in all her dealings -- manipulation isn't her strong suit, nor her natural inclination. She's got to IMPRESS the boys. The sports thing is a way to do that, because she's got fewer female competitors who can measure up to her ability in that area. Truth to tell, few boys are as good as she is, either. You don't think boys NOTICE her because of it? That's not to say she doesn't enjoy doing those things, like it's some odious task that she hates and is only doing for the results it's going to get her. But is IS the thing that is Betty's general motivation for doing MANY of the things she does, not just sports. Cooking and baking as well. How this can possibly have escaped someone's perception about Betty, I don't really understand. She's got a can-do attitude, and she enjoys learning new things and the feeling of accomplishment she gets from excelling in some new area that she challenges herself to do, but don't dismiss the admiring looks she gets from boys as a powerful incentive. Especially if it's something directly related to impressing Archie.

ARCHIE: B) The befuddled, clumsy loser of most other eras; C) The all-around nice guy. I think a combination of these two. To be honest, I never thought Archie did the jerk thing terribly well.

JUGHEAD: C) The anti-romance character who can still hang out with women (such as his friendship with Betty). The Jughead who isn't a misogynist, just doesn't have an interest in dating is a much more interesting character, to me.

VERONICA: B) The Jerk with a Heart of Gold character (mostly seen in and after the '60s). The newer Veronica (prior to the reboot) was too much like Betty. The less considerate version gave more contrast, and once Cheryl arrived, there was a pretty good distinction between the three of them.

BETTY COOPER: B) The All-Around Girl-Next-Door Nice Girl Tomboy (most eras). Crazy Betty had some appeal, but like I mentioned with Veronica, there really needs to be something to keep them from being clones. It also was nice to see that you don't have to be a jerk. Betty did nice things (not the Archie attention-getting stuff, but for others) because she wanted to. I always liked that about the character.

REGGIE MANTLE: B) Jerk With a Heart of Gold, who still hangs out with the gang. If he was just the town villain, there wouldn't really be a reason for the others to tolerate him. Yes, he can still be a jerk, but he can also be decent when it matters.

CHERYL BLOSSOM: A) The super-selfish and obnoxious villain ('80s & her return). Yes, she is rather one-dimentional in this guise, but I always saw Cheryl as a foil for both Betty and Veronica to have a common ground.

Mostly I choose B for all but with Veronica I choose B and C

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 27, 2016, 10:35:47 AM
Yes, she did. More often than not, you'll see her working on ARCHIE's car -- which is famously in frequent need of repair. While I'm pretty sure you can trace this rationale back to whatever was the first story where Betty worked on Archie's car, I'll simply refer you to BETTY #19 (Nov. 1994), as that's an issue (Part II of the "Love Showdown" crossover which ran in 4 issues: ARCHIE #429, BETTY #19, BETTY AND VERONICA #82, and VERONICA #39), that's not only one of the most easily accessible stories, but because it spells things out for you in black & white.

Yeah, I know she's used mechanics to try and win Archie's favor- that's "Betty 101" right there (I've read a dozen stories where she does just that). I'm just questioning your theory that she learned it JUST to win over Archie. I mean, Betty's all into Women's Lib and junk, and that's like the least-feminist thing ever . It seems clear that's more of a hobby of hers (she's seen working on cars with her dad a lot, too- he probably got her into cars) that she's WILLING to use in her favor.

QuoteBetty is naturally superior to Archie in just about every way, especially in the thinking department. I just don't think you really understand a few things about Betty. While the Coopers certainly raised her right, and gave her a kind-hearted and optimistic outlook on life, virtually everything Betty has done with her life so far has been motivated largely by (a) her obsession with Archie, and (b) her competitiveness with Veronica. Betty is the hands-on, do-it-yourself type. She's smart enough to recognize that there are some areas in which Veronica has insurmountable advantages. She's also smart enough to realize that she has to take advantage of any areas in which Veronica is weak, areas in which her brains, willingness to work hard to accomplish a goal, and natural talents outclass Veronica in every way. She can't compete with Veronica's financial resources, her ability to buy her way to solutions to her problems. Betty has to use talent, brains, and sheer determination to overcome Veronica's advantages that come from wealth and the ability to manipulate boys using her natural sexual attractiveness. Not to say that Betty's any less attractive, but she's honest, straightforward and above-board in all her dealings -- manipulation isn't her strong suit, nor her natural inclination.

Yes, I agree- this is more "Betty 101". Everyone who reads Archie should know this.

QuoteShe's got to IMPRESS the boys. The sports thing is a way to do that, because she's got fewer female competitors who can measure up to her ability in that area. Truth to tell, few boys are as good as she is, either. You don't think boys NOTICE her because of it? That's not to say she doesn't enjoy doing those things, like it's some odious task that she hates and is only doing for the results it's going to get her. But is IS the thing that is Betty's general motivation for doing MANY of the things she does, not just sports. Cooking and baking as well.

I really don't see Betty having learned sports to win boys. She's got a natural competitive streak, and is all about making herself better (with or without the attention of others)- I find this assertion that she did so very weird. I've read tons of stories where her being good at sports is either something people don't know about (ie. she never bragged or showed off), or where she deliberately pretends to be worse so that Archie can fell like more of a man (sometimes she actually manipulates him into "showing her how it's done", despite being better at it herself!). I've also read tons of stories where she leads the girls to whup on the boys in order to teach them a lesson about chauvinism. I've never seen her use sports to try to win boys over. If anything, that's often a NEGATIVE against her interactions with boys, because she spends all this time obsessing over self-perfection, while Veronica walks away with the boys.

Now, the BAKING? Yeah, she's all about leading Archie astray via brownies .

I dunno- I find your assertions a bit odd, and you seem to be obsessing over this/taking it a bit personally (and "How this can possibly have escaped someone's perception about Betty, I don't really understand." is something I find disrespectful). Since I don't want to aggravate you further, and since I can't remember whether or not you're one of the people on here with Asperger's or Autism (I'd rather not pick on someone like that), I'll let the matter drop.

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 29, 2016, 03:19:41 AM
I really don't see Betty having learned sports to win boys. She's got a natural competitive streak,

That's actually the crux of where we disagree. It's not a natural competitive streak. Betty's easygoing by nature. It's an aggravated competitive streak. It's VERONICA who's naturally competitive, and brings that aspect out in Betty, because Veronica, if Betty let her, would just reduce Betty to having an inferiority complex (and in a few stories, you can see it). But no, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Most of the all-out excellence that Betty shows in different areas can be attributed to Betty responding to Veronica's attempts to show her up. She just has to show her talents in different ways, rather than going head-to-head with Ronnie in those areas where Ronnie's got her beat. Stuff like learning to fix Archie's car to impress him, or being the best girl surfer, or being an excellent cook. Why those? Because she knows those are things that boys value and respect, and she wants to be respected and admired by them. The competitive streak is all ABOUT boys. Betty doesn't have some kind of innate "need to achieve" or compete. It's Veronica that's motivating most of that. Over boys, especially Archie. Betty's obsession with Archie is the key to the puzzle. Betty might be able to let Veronica's showboating slide, if it weren't for Archie. It galls Betty that HER Archie falls for the kind of superficiality that Veronica represents to her, so Betty has to show that she's MORE than just a pretty face (yes, she wants to be pretty, too, but she wants to show she's got MORE beyond that to offer a guy). But then, Archie comes to represent all boys for Betty, so by extension, she's trying to impress all boys -- but especially Archie (it's a vicious circle -- if other boys are all impressed by her, then Archie is bound to be, too). Is it weird that she wants to impress Archie? I'd argue that's pretty much what ACP has always been about (i.e. girls impressing boys and vice-versa), and any attempt at political correctness is some kind of afterthought.

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 29, 2016, 03:19:41 AM
I'm just questioning your theory that she learned it JUST to win over Archie.

Theory -- ? That's what the story in Betty #19 is all about. Did you not pay attention to the reaction of Mr. & Mrs. Cooper to Betty studying the car manual for Archie's car? They don't react as if she's always been fixing cars. They're a little put off. Mrs. Cooper with "What happened to the helpless routine?" and Mr. Cooper joking about "If you want to practice on newer model, I could use a brake job!" (why does she need practice if she already knows how to fix cars?) Mrs Cooper joking about "Did the hospital give us Mr. Goodwrench's baby by mistake?" -- These are not remarks that they'd make if Betty has been fixing cars all along. She gets the manual TO FIX ARCHIE'S CAR. She's learning to do it by getting a book, and then just jumping in feet first. She went out on a limb on the telephone by telling him "maybe I could take a look at it" (she's not so bold as to promise him she can fix it right away, but she's gonna fake her way as far as she can get). Prior to that she's never worked on a car.

Betty's got an introspective side, where she likes to read and write, do little creative things, gardening and crafts, but in those things that she does just for herself, she's not too far above the average girl. I'm not going to argue that the only reason Betty is an "A" student is so she can help Archie with his homework, but if she wasn't an "A" student she'd have a lot less opportunity to spend that time with him. That's just something that sits in the back of her mind, whenever she might feel a natural urge to slack off on her studies a little bit.

And yes, in the 2000s they've been trying to tone down the whole "it's all about the boys" thing in favor of "girl power". Your can reface the surface but you can't do much about the basic foundation, unless you get rid of the central conceit of "average all-american nice guy" who tries to date (at least) two girls at the same time.

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 29, 2016, 03:19:41 AM
Since I don't want to aggravate you further, and since I can't remember whether or not you're one of the people on here with Asperger's or Autism (I'd rather not pick on someone like that), I'll let the matter drop.

" is something I find disrespectful"
BA-ZINGA!!  Well, what can I say?  You sure put me in MY place. Pretty SWAH-vey!

Remind me to try to care LESS about the discussions here in the future.

Quote from: Jabroniville on June 26, 2016, 03:49:30 AM
Ooh, thought of another one:

Big Ethel- Part 1: A) The psychotic, obsessive, "Lena Hyena"-esque stalker out to tackle Jughead and force kisses upon him, or B) Modern-day "sadly mooning over the boy who doesn't like her" Ethel.

Big Ethel- Part 2: A) Old-school, hideous Ethel, or B) Modern-Day, Pretty Ethel.

I'd go with "A" in both instances.  Ethel (followed closely by Moose) is a character who bears virtually no resemblance to who she was in appearance and behavior during her first several decades of existence. Cheryl and Reggie have similarly had their character traits watered down over the past twenty years or so, but not to the extreme of Ethel.

The kindler, gentler ACP pushed so many established characters towards homogenization since the 90's while at the same time introducing dozens of new supporting cast members who were never really developed but only given one or two token reasons to make them interesting.  Kevin is probably the best developed of any new character since Cheryl, and he still has a ways to go imo.

I'm thinking only of the classic Archie universe and not the reboot or LWA.

Quote from: steveinthecity on September 18, 2016, 04:37:41 PM
The kindler, gentler ACP pushed so many established characters towards homogenization since the 90's while at the same time introducing dozens of new supporting cast members who were never really developed but only given one or two token reasons to make them interesting.  Kevin is probably the best developed of any new character since Cheryl, and he still has a ways to go imo.

I think if you take the trouble to do a page-and-panel count, the reasons become self-explanatory. You more or less hint at them by juxtaposing the examples of Cheryl and Kevin. The perception of relative character development is a result of dividing the number of appearances (and panels in which the character appears, along with instances of significant dialogue exchanges) of Kevin into the same for Cheryl. To put it simply, more panels and dialogue were devoted to Cheryl than Kevin. But then, it shouldn't be surprising, because by the time Kevin made his debut, there were relatively fewer potential story panels in total  for Kevin to appear in being published by ACP. Therefore, when you cram a dozen or more new characters into a 4-part story like "New Kids Off the Wall" (a.k.a. Clash of the New Kids), and follow up that introduction of a bevy of new characters by cancelling titles left and right, there's no way to possibly develop them properly. Simple division should prove mathematically that more characters divided into fewer panels equals diminished character development.

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on September 19, 2016, 11:23:06 AM

Quote from: steveinthecity on September 18, 2016, 04:37:41 PM
The kindler, gentler ACP pushed so many established characters towards homogenization since the 90's while at the same time introducing dozens of new supporting cast members who were never really developed but only given one or two token reasons to make them interesting.  Kevin is probably the best developed of any new character since Cheryl, and he still has a ways to go imo.

I think if you take the trouble to do a page-and-panel count, the reasons become self-explanatory. You more or less hint at them by juxtaposing the examples of Cheryl and Kevin. The perception of relative character development is a result of dividing the number of appearances (and panels in which the character appears, along with instances of significant dialogue exchanges) of Kevin into the same for Cheryl. To put it simply, more panels and dialogue were devoted to Cheryl than Kevin. But then, it shouldn't be surprising, because by the time Kevin made his debut, there were relatively fewer potential story panels in total  for Kevin to appear in being published by ACP. Therefore, when you cram a dozen or more new characters into a 4-part story like "New Kids Off the Wall" (a.k.a. Clash of the New Kids), and follow up that introduction of a bevy of new characters by cancelling titles left and right, there's no way to possibly develop them properly. Simple division should prove mathematically that more characters divided into fewer panels equals diminished character development.

Sure, I get the "math" involved.  I just think it was a poor decision on the part of ACP to create so many new characters when there were not enough titles/stories to use them with any regularity.  Seems like they were developed mostly for publicity, to show inclusiveness, or a combination of the two.  Doesn't really benefit me as a reader to have all these extra characters around that add little to the stories to my thinking. 

Edit:  Just wanted to add - I don't have a list of all Kevin's appearances, but I checked the Cheryl list and she appeared in 32 stories in 33 months(Oct '82- Jun '85) before she disappeared into the ether.  She was a central part of all those stories, and I'm guessing that's probably double what Kevin had between Veronica and his solo title.  I'm in agreement with your post.

Archie:B
Jughead: combination of A and C. B completely violates the character IMHO.
Veronica: B. I also like it when she is portrayed as basically the fun-loving, attractive sex object as she was sometimes in the '50s through the '70s. During this era, she often was no more of a jerk than Betty or Midge was.
Betty: A & B.
Reggie: A, but with the caveat that he is also attractive to women.
Cheryl Blossom: No opinion.
Big Ethel Parts 1 & 2: A.