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hey hey hey

Started by Acejughead, January 06, 2017, 09:45:56 pm

Previous topic - Next topic

apple

Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:01:04 pm
There's no more reliable critic of a 16 year old than another 16 year old.   ;)


I honest to god have no clue what you meant by the rest of that but are you saying that you'll only accept Jug being asexual if an adult points it out? I cannot think of a context where that wouldn't be either weird, creepy, or both.
<3 archie/jughead <3

steveinthecity

Quote from: apple on January 11, 2017, 10:15:44 pm
Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:01:04 pm
There's no more reliable critic of a 16 year old than another 16 year old.   ;)


I honest to god have no clue what you meant by the rest of that but are you saying that you'll only accept Jug being asexual if an adult points it out? I cannot think of a context where that wouldn't be either weird, creepy, or both.
Not in the least.  Adults are not the be all end all in opinions imo, just that I'd take a high school kids opinion with a grain or two of salt is all I'm saying.
Comics!

Acejughead

Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:26:48 pm
Quote from: apple on January 11, 2017, 10:15:44 pm
Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:01:04 pm
There's no more reliable critic of a 16 year old than another 16 year old.   ;)


I honest to god have no clue what you meant by the rest of that but are you saying that you'll only accept Jug being asexual if an adult points it out? I cannot think of a context where that wouldn't be either weird, creepy, or both.
Not in the least.  Adults are not the be all end all in opinions imo, just that I'd take a high school kids opinion with a grain or two of salt is all I'm saying.
'

IT'S SAID IN-COMIC AND BY THE AUTHOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FROM THEM
You get it said by the people controlling all the characters.
They even write it in and then have the character consistently act in ways that confirm his asexuality.

What are you trying to get me to say? Congratulations for not trusting children??

steveinthecity

Quote from: Acejughead on January 11, 2017, 10:36:02 pm
Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:26:48 pm
Quote from: apple on January 11, 2017, 10:15:44 pm
Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:01:04 pm
There's no more reliable critic of a 16 year old than another 16 year old.   ;)


I honest to god have no clue what you meant by the rest of that but are you saying that you'll only accept Jug being asexual if an adult points it out? I cannot think of a context where that wouldn't be either weird, creepy, or both.
Not in the least.  Adults are not the be all end all in opinions imo, just that I'd take a high school kids opinion with a grain or two of salt is all I'm saying.
'

IT'S SAID IN-COMIC AND BY THE AUTHOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FROM THEM
You get it said by the people controlling all the characters.
They even write it in and then have the chainracter consistently act in ways that confirm his asexuality.

What are you trying to get me to say? Congratulations for not trusting children??
Umm,  you're right on all counts.


Consistently from creators like Montana, Doyle, Boldman, etc. is out the window? Where did I imply I don't trust children? 


Should I leap for joy over a cartoon characters sexuality?  I barely care about my own.  Maybe there's a name for that, and someone should incorporate that into my custom title.


I should start posting in all caps, maybe. Because. :)


I forgot the apostrophe in "characters". 



Comics!

Acejughead

Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 11:33:57 pm
Quote from: Acejughead on January 11, 2017, 10:36:02 pm
Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:26:48 pm
Quote from: apple on January 11, 2017, 10:15:44 pm
Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:01:04 pm
There's no more reliable critic of a 16 year old than another 16 year old.   ;)


I honest to god have no clue what you meant by the rest of that but are you saying that you'll only accept Jug being asexual if an adult points it out? I cannot think of a context where that wouldn't be either weird, creepy, or both.
Not in the least.  Adults are not the be all end all in opinions imo, just that I'd take a high school kids opinion with a grain or two of salt is all I'm saying.
'

IT'S SAID IN-COMIC AND BY THE AUTHOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FROM THEM
You get it said by the people controlling all the characters.
They even write it in and then have the chainracter consistently act in ways that confirm his asexuality.

What are you trying to get me to say? Congratulations for not trusting children??
Umm,  you're right on all counts.


Consistently from creators like Montana, Doyle, Boldman, etc. is out the window? Where did I imply I don't trust children? 


Should I leap for joy over a cartoon characters sexuality?  I barely care about my own.  Maybe there's a name for that, and someone should incorporate that into my custom title.


I should start posting in all caps, maybe. Because. :)


I forgot the apostrophe in "characters".


Listen, I made a post to say "Hi! I'm joining this forum! I like the comics, and asexual Jughead is something I really like!" I never said any of you had to be excited, but apparently if it matters to one person it needs to matter to everyone (before you quote that line and say that you "never said that" I'm going to point out that you asked me why it matters. That was the first thing you said to me. It doesn't have to matter to you and I never said it did. I was just saying I was happy he was asexual, I wasn't pushing some kind of agenda. It matters to me.)

I never said that other creators said he was ace. I specifically mentioned Ryan North and Chip Zdarsky. When I say "asexual Jughead" I am talking about the "New Riverdale" line of comics, not any previous ones. I made the username "acejughead" because that's what I'm excited about, just like other users have made usernames related to them shipping Betty and Reggie. Because betty/reggie is what they support and they are excited about the pairing.

I typed in caps because I was trying to communicate that I was frustrated. I will avoid doing that from now on, I was just unsure how to get that frustration across in text. Don't be passive aggressive with me, just ask me not to type in all caps.

Since apparently you're going to nitpick, I'm sorry for making a typo or two. Also, I think you were trying to say that I made a typo? In which case you should've written "You forgot the apostrophe in "characters"." I also misspelled characters but you missed that lol
please stop trying to have some kind of debate I wasn't trying to cause an argument by simply bringing up a character's sexuality. Sorry my identity and enjoyment of a comic book is so controversial.

DeCarlo Rules

January 12, 2017, 12:28:51 am #20 Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 12:57:14 am by DeCarlo Rules
Quote from: Acejughead on January 11, 2017, 10:36:02 pm

IT'S SAID IN-COMIC AND BY THE AUTHOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FROM THEM


I want to hear it coming from Jughead himself. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to ask, for the author to take what he's saying on the internet and put those words into Jughead's dialogue. I've read the comics, and it doesn't matter what Kevin decides to label Jughead, only what Jughead labels himself. Kevin can speak for himself, but not for Jughead.

You shouldn't have to read what the author says on the internet to interpret what's in the comic (that's a DVD extra 'commentary' track). It's entirely possible (even more than possible if you're not keeping up with the internet buzz) to read what Jughead himself says or doesn't say in NRJ as not particularly different from a lot of the classic Jughead stories. Maybe ACP feels that in an all-ages comic it can't be as overt as that, but I don't see what the big deal is. Just show me where he refers to or identifies himself as asexual, that's all. If you want to make a definite statement about something, then just have the character say it out loud, instead of implying it, or having the author explain what he meant, outside of the context of the story. Otherwise it isn't a strong statement of an idea; it's not conclusive.

I guess maybe I have to state in no uncertain terms that what I'm criticizing here isn't some issue of whether Jughead is or isn't asexual, I'm criticizing the writing itself. The story should speak for itself without ambiguity so that the author has to add no out-of-context commentary.

Thestereotypebuster

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on January 12, 2017, 12:28:51 am
Quote from: Acejughead on January 11, 2017, 10:36:02 pm

IT'S SAID IN-COMIC AND BY THE AUTHOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FROM THEM


I want to hear it coming from Jughead himself. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to ask, for the author to take what he's saying on the internet and put those words into Jughead's dialogue. I've read the comics, and it doesn't matter what Kevin decides to label Jughead, only what Jughead labels himself. Kevin can speak for himself, but not for Jughead.

You shouldn't have to read what the author says on the internet to interpret what's in the comic (that's a DVD extra 'commentary' track). It's entirely possible (even more than possible if you're not keeping up with the internet buzz) to read what Jughead himself says or doesn't say in NRJ as not particularly different from a lot of the classic Jughead stories. Maybe ACP feels that in an all-ages comic it can't be as overt as that, but I don't see what the big deal is. Just show me where he refers to or identifies himself as asexual, that's all. If you want to make a definite statement about something, then just have the character say it out loud, instead of implying it, or having the author explain what he meant, outside of the context of the story. Otherwise it isn't a strong statement of an idea; it's not conclusive.

I guess maybe I have to state in no uncertain terms that what I'm criticizing here isn't some issue of whether Jughead is or isn't asexual, I'm criticizing the writing itself. The story should speak for itself so that the author has to add no out-of-context commentary.

I think that's kind of the point. He HASN'T been changed as far as characterization. All that's changed is the terminology. And he's the rest of that page, where Jughead confirms Kevin's assessment:

Acejughead

Quote from: Thestereotypebuster on January 12, 2017, 12:59:45 am
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on January 12, 2017, 12:28:51 am
Quote from: Acejughead on January 11, 2017, 10:36:02 pm

IT'S SAID IN-COMIC AND BY THE AUTHOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FROM THEM


I want to hear it coming from Jughead himself. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to ask, for the author to take what he's saying on the internet and put those words into Jughead's dialogue. I've read the comics, and it doesn't matter what Kevin decides to label Jughead, only what Jughead labels himself. Kevin can speak for himself, but not for Jughead.

You shouldn't have to read what the author says on the internet to interpret what's in the comic (that's a DVD extra 'commentary' track). It's entirely possible (even more than possible if you're not keeping up with the internet buzz) to read what Jughead himself says or doesn't say in NRJ as not particularly different from a lot of the classic Jughead stories. Maybe ACP feels that in an all-ages comic it can't be as overt as that, but I don't see what the big deal is. Just show me where he refers to or identifies himself as asexual, that's all. If you want to make a definite statement about something, then just have the character say it out loud, instead of implying it, or having the author explain what he meant, outside of the context of the story. Otherwise it isn't a strong statement of an idea; it's not conclusive.

I guess maybe I have to state in no uncertain terms that what I'm criticizing here isn't some issue of whether Jughead is or isn't asexual, I'm criticizing the writing itself. The story should speak for itself so that the author has to add no out-of-context commentary.

I think that's kind of the point. He HASN'T been changed as far as characterization. All that's changed is the terminology. And he's the rest of that page, where Jughead confirms Kevin's assessment:


Yes, thank you! This isn't like when J.K. Rowling was like "oh btw Dumbledore was totally gay, see I had representation in Harry Potter"

Zdarsky explained, before the comic was created, that he would be writing Jughead as asexual, because someone asked him at a panel.
Throughout the comics there are some really obvious scenes and Jughead talks about being asexual, but doesn't feel the need to say the word, because that would be unnecessarily repetitive. DeCarlo, if you actually don't know what scenes I'm talking about and they went over your head or something, I have already said I'm willing to explain, but you clearly have some weird standards about a character's identity or don't actually want to understand. I don't have to prove anything to you. I am not the writer of Jughead, I can't get him to make some panel where Jughead looks straight at us and goes "OH BTW I'm asexual". Please stop trying to back me into a corner about how Jughead is being portrayed. The asexuality is being handled really well in the comic and I'm sorry that isn't enough for you.

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: Thestereotypebuster on January 12, 2017, 12:59:45 am
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on January 12, 2017, 12:28:51 am
Quote from: Acejughead on January 11, 2017, 10:36:02 pm

IT'S SAID IN-COMIC AND BY THE AUTHOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FROM THEM


I want to hear it coming from Jughead himself. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to ask, for the author to take what he's saying on the internet and put those words into Jughead's dialogue. I've read the comics, and it doesn't matter what Kevin decides to label Jughead, only what Jughead labels himself. Kevin can speak for himself, but not for Jughead.

You shouldn't have to read what the author says on the internet to interpret what's in the comic (that's a DVD extra 'commentary' track). It's entirely possible (even more than possible if you're not keeping up with the internet buzz) to read what Jughead himself says or doesn't say in NRJ as not particularly different from a lot of the classic Jughead stories. Maybe ACP feels that in an all-ages comic it can't be as overt as that, but I don't see what the big deal is. Just show me where he refers to or identifies himself as asexual, that's all. If you want to make a definite statement about something, then just have the character say it out loud, instead of implying it, or having the author explain what he meant, outside of the context of the story. Otherwise it isn't a strong statement of an idea; it's not conclusive.

I guess maybe I have to state in no uncertain terms that what I'm criticizing here isn't some issue of whether Jughead is or isn't asexual, I'm criticizing the writing itself. The story should speak for itself so that the author has to add no out-of-context commentary.

I think that's kind of the point. He HASN'T been changed as far as characterization. All that's changed is the terminology. And he's the rest of that page, where Jughead confirms Kevin's assessment:



Actually, this is exactly what I mean. Instead of Jughead addressing Kevin's identification of him directly, he immediately deflects that into a tangent about Jughead's own relative lack of vulnerabilities or weaknesses compared to Kevin or anyone else. At the same time he isn't challenging what Kevin says about him, he isn't committing to it in principle by reiterating that same identification that Kevin mentioned in his own words, unless you're satisfied by "Yeah, well..."

steveinthecity

Quote from: Acejughead on January 11, 2017, 11:57:17 pm
Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 11:33:57 pm
Quote from: Acejughead on January 11, 2017, 10:36:02 pm
Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:26:48 pm
Quote from: apple on January 11, 2017, 10:15:44 pm
Quote from: steveinthecity on January 11, 2017, 10:01:04 pm
There's no more reliable critic of a 16 year old than another 16 year old.   ;)


I honest to god have no clue what you meant by the rest of that but are you saying that you'll only accept Jug being asexual if an adult points it out? I cannot think of a context where that wouldn't be either weird, creepy, or both.
Not in the least.  Adults are not the be all end all in opinions imo, just that I'd take a high school kids opinion with a grain or two of salt is all I'm saying.
'

IT'S SAID IN-COMIC AND BY THE AUTHOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FROM THEM
You get it said by the people controlling all the characters.
They even write it in and then have the chainracter consistently act in ways that confirm his asexuality.

What are you trying to get me to say? Congratulations for not trusting children??
Umm,  you're right on all counts.


Consistently from creators like Montana, Doyle, Boldman, etc. is out the window? Where did I imply I don't trust children? 


Should I leap for joy over a cartoon characters sexuality?  I barely care about my own.  Maybe there's a name for that, and someone should incorporate that into my custom title.


I should start posting in all caps, maybe. Because. :)


I forgot the apostrophe in "characters".


Listen, I made a post to say "Hi! I'm joining this forum! I like the comics, and asexual Jughead is something I really like!" I never said any of you had to be excited, but apparently if it matters to one person it needs to matter to everyone (before you quote that line and say that you "never said that" I'm going to point out that you asked me why it matters. That was the first thing you said to me. It doesn't have to matter to you and I never said it did. I was just saying I was happy he was asexual, I wasn't pushing some kind of agenda. It matters to me.)

I never said that other creators said he was ace. I specifically mentioned Ryan North and Chip Zdarsky. When I say "asexual Jughead" I am talking about the "New Riverdale" line of comics, not any previous ones. I made the username "acejughead" because that's what I'm excited about, just like other users have made usernames related to them shipping Betty and Reggie. Because betty/reggie is what they support and they are excited about the pairing.

I typed in caps because I was trying to communicate that I was frustrated. I will avoid doing that from now on, I was just unsure how to get that frustration across in text. Don't be passive aggressive with me, just ask me not to type in all caps.

Since apparently you're going to nitpick, I'm sorry for making a typo or two. Also, I think you were trying to say that I made a typo? In which case you should've written "You forgot the apostrophe in "characters"." I also misspelled characters but you missed that lol
please stop trying to have some kind of debate I wasn't trying to cause an argument by simply bringing up a character's sexuality. Sorry my identity and enjoyment of a comic book is so controversial.
I'm listening.   ;)


I'm not nitpicking or being passive aggressive by any means.  I was genuinely curious about your comment on Jughead's sexuality and why it even matters is all.   My favorite comics character since...forever is Jughead, so I'm always interested in what folks opinions about him are, particularly Archie readers.


My comment on the typo was just calling myself out, maybe self depreciation or something along those lines. 


I'm not trying to debate or argue.  If you're only speaking of behavioral traits in the reboot, that's fine.  Probably nothing to debate anyhow. I often take the body of work as a whole and draw conclusions from that.  In this instance, I shouldn't do that.


Again, welcome to the forum and I'm glad you're here.  If I don't seem to care about yours or others sexual orientation it shouldn't  be implied that I don't care about you (or others) as people, but rather I don't care about who you boink or otherwise covet.


As to the comments above, Jughead most assuredly dated girls throughout the years,  not sure if that means anything or if it should.


Comics!

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: Acejughead on January 12, 2017, 01:11:35 am
I don't have to prove anything to you. I am not the writer of Jughead, I can't get him to make some panel where Jughead looks straight at us and goes "OH BTW I'm asexual". Please stop trying to back me into a corner about how Jughead is being portrayed. The asexuality is being handled really well in the comic and I'm sorry that isn't enough for you.


True you don't, and you're not. So you don't need to feel sorry that the actual writer didn't do enough for me personally.

Why do you feel like this is about you?

Thestereotypebuster

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on January 12, 2017, 01:17:28 am
Quote from: Thestereotypebuster on January 12, 2017, 12:59:45 am
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on January 12, 2017, 12:28:51 am
Quote from: Acejughead on January 11, 2017, 10:36:02 pm

IT'S SAID IN-COMIC AND BY THE AUTHOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE YOU WANT FROM THEM


I want to hear it coming from Jughead himself. I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to ask, for the author to take what he's saying on the internet and put those words into Jughead's dialogue. I've read the comics, and it doesn't matter what Kevin decides to label Jughead, only what Jughead labels himself. Kevin can speak for himself, but not for Jughead.

You shouldn't have to read what the author says on the internet to interpret what's in the comic (that's a DVD extra 'commentary' track). It's entirely possible (even more than possible if you're not keeping up with the internet buzz) to read what Jughead himself says or doesn't say in NRJ as not particularly different from a lot of the classic Jughead stories. Maybe ACP feels that in an all-ages comic it can't be as overt as that, but I don't see what the big deal is. Just show me where he refers to or identifies himself as asexual, that's all. If you want to make a definite statement about something, then just have the character say it out loud, instead of implying it, or having the author explain what he meant, outside of the context of the story. Otherwise it isn't a strong statement of an idea; it's not conclusive.

I guess maybe I have to state in no uncertain terms that what I'm criticizing here isn't some issue of whether Jughead is or isn't asexual, I'm criticizing the writing itself. The story should speak for itself so that the author has to add no out-of-context commentary.

I think that's kind of the point. He HASN'T been changed as far as characterization. All that's changed is the terminology. And he's the rest of that page, where Jughead confirms Kevin's assessment:



Actually, this is exactly what I mean. Instead of Jughead addressing Kevin's identification of him directly, he immediately deflects that into a tangent about Jughead's own relative lack of vulnerabilities or weaknesses compared to Kevin or anyone else. At the same time he isn't challenging what Kevin says about him, he isn't committing to it in principle by reiterating that same identification that Kevin mentioned in his own words, unless you're satisfied by "Yeah, well..."




"I don't get crushes" is the definition of asexuality.

Acejughead

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on January 12, 2017, 01:28:39 am
Quote from: Acejughead on January 12, 2017, 01:11:35 am
I don't have to prove anything to you. I am not the writer of Jughead, I can't get him to make some panel where Jughead looks straight at us and goes "OH BTW I'm asexual". Please stop trying to back me into a corner about how Jughead is being portrayed. The asexuality is being handled really well in the comic and I'm sorry that isn't enough for you.


True you don't, and you're not. So you don't need to feel sorry that the actual writer didn't do enough for me personally.

Why do you feel like this is about you?


Because this isn't the "argue about Jughead's asexuality" thread, this is my "Hi! I'm a new user!" thread! And you directed the "I'm not convinced" comment at me! I don't care that you want Jughead to explain in detail that he's asexual before you will believe it. Why would I, an asexual, want to hear that you don't believe that one of the only asexual characters I get as representation is actually ace? (that's a rhetorical question please don't try to give me a reason I would want to know because trust me, I did not need to know)

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: Acejughead on January 12, 2017, 01:41:35 am
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on January 12, 2017, 01:28:39 am
Quote from: Acejughead on January 12, 2017, 01:11:35 am
I don't have to prove anything to you. I am not the writer of Jughead, I can't get him to make some panel where Jughead looks straight at us and goes "OH BTW I'm asexual". Please stop trying to back me into a corner about how Jughead is being portrayed. The asexuality is being handled really well in the comic and I'm sorry that isn't enough for you.


True you don't, and you're not. So you don't need to feel sorry that the actual writer didn't do enough for me personally.

Why do you feel like this is about you?


Because this isn't the "argue about Jughead's asexuality" thread, this is my "Hi! I'm a new user!" thread! And you directed the "I'm not convinced" comment at me! I don't care that you want Jughead to explain in detail that he's asexual before you will believe it. Why would I, an asexual, want to hear that you don't believe that one of the only asexual characters I get as representation is actually ace? (that's a rhetorical question please don't try to give me a reason I would want to know because trust me, I did not need to know)


Perhaps we should move to a new thread then. These things often go off on tangents. I apologize if you feel like my criticism of the writing on Jughead somehow translates into a criticism of you personally, but I really said nothing about you personally.

That said, I probably would not be as critical of what I'm reading in the comic, were it not for the internet statements made by the author. After reading the statements, and then the actual story, the way that his asexuality is addressed in the story just seems somehow underwhelming, since it made me expect something a little more definite in terms of delineating NR Jughead from prior versions of Jughead. Or "over my head", if that's the interpretation that makes you happy.

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: Thestereotypebuster on January 12, 2017, 01:30:12 am

"I don't get crushes" is the definition of asexuality.


Well, it's ONE OF the definitions, which isn't quite the same.

According to http://www.whatisasexuality.com/intro/ (just so you don't think I'm pulling this out of thin air):

QuoteAlong with a sexual orientation, people have what's called a romantic or affectional orientation that describes who that person might be romantically attracted to.  In many people, the sexual and romantic orientations are aligned, so people tend not to think about them being separate concepts.  It is not uncommon for asexuals to experience romantic attraction.

Romantic orientations are given names that parallel sexual orientations.  For instance, a heteroromantic person is someone who experiences romantic attraction toward a different gender, homoromantic  toward the same gender, and so on.  A significant number of asexuals also identify as aromantic, which means that they do not experience romantic attraction.

Separating romantic and sexual attraction is not strictly limited to asexual people, however.  For instance, it is possible for someone to be an aromantic heterosexual, or any other combination.


You may identify asexuality as defined by "I don't get crushes", but not all asexuals do, nor do all heterosexuals or homosexuals get romantic crushes. Some people simply keep romance and sex separated, and sexual abstinence isn't necessarily indicative of asexuality either. Darn people are so complicated that you need a hundred labels to keep up.


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