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Afterlife With Archie [spoilers]

Started by Thrillho, May 25, 2016, 12:03:36 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: BettyReggie on May 28, 2016, 11:54:42 AM
I'm guessing mine will come today. But I did listen to Riverdale Podcast, so I know what happens. I'm just wondering what's going when the book ends. Will Riverdale go back to normal. Was it all dream? 

Yes, that would be the happy ending to a zombie story that involves Dan Parent drawing the final page, which I referred to in an earlier post. To me that would be the ideal ending, but I'm sure it would just tick some other readers off, particularly (but by no means exclusively) the non-classic Archie readers.

The more conventionally expected ending would be "You die, he dies, she dies, everybody dies." (More likely though, everybody BUT Archie.)

Thrillho

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 29, 2016, 12:16:02 AM
Quote from: BettyReggie on May 28, 2016, 11:54:42 AM
I'm guessing mine will come today. But I did listen to Riverdale Podcast, so I know what happens. I'm just wondering what's going when the book ends. Will Riverdale go back to normal. Was it all dream? 

Yes, that would be the happy ending to a zombie story that involves Dan Parent drawing the final page, which I referred to in an earlier post. To me that would be the ideal ending, but I'm sure it would just tick some other readers off, particularly (but by no means exclusively) the non-classic Archie readers.

The more conventionally expected ending would be "You die, he dies, she dies, everybody dies." (More likely though, everybody BUT Archie.)

I wouldn't really go for that. The whole point of AWA is that it's supposed to be an alternate universe so I expect/want something that deviates from classic Archie. I think a truly happy ending is out of the realm of possibility as they've already lost too many family members and friends, and I think a time spell or something like that would be a cop out. I can see a bittersweet ending where the survivors come to terms with their losses, get to burying their loved ones, and being hopeful about the future. I also don't see everyone dying as this book takes itself more seriously than Archie vs. Predator did.

DeCarlo Rules

#17
Quote from: Thrillho on May 29, 2016, 04:28:56 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 29, 2016, 12:16:02 AM
Quote from: BettyReggie on May 28, 2016, 11:54:42 AM
I'm guessing mine will come today. But I did listen to Riverdale Podcast, so I know what happens. I'm just wondering what's going when the book ends. Will Riverdale go back to normal. Was it all dream? 

Yes, that would be the happy ending to a zombie story that involves Dan Parent drawing the final page, which I referred to in an earlier post. To me that would be the ideal ending, but I'm sure it would just tick some other readers off, particularly (but by no means exclusively) the non-classic Archie readers.

The more conventionally expected ending would be "You die, he dies, she dies, everybody dies." (More likely though, everybody BUT Archie.)

I wouldn't really go for that. The whole point of AWA is that it's supposed to be an alternate universe so I expect/want something that deviates from classic Archie. I think a truly happy ending is out of the realm of possibility as they've already lost too many family members and friends, and I think a time spell or something like that would be a cop out. I can see a bittersweet ending where the survivors come to terms with their losses, get to burying their loved ones, and being hopeful about the future. I also don't see everyone dying as this book takes itself more seriously than Archie vs. Predator did.


I didn't mean to imply that I thought that there's any serious chance of what I'm calling "the Dan Parent ending" happening. The reason I see it as "ideal" is that it seems like it has such a fractional chance in hell of actually happening, that to really DO it would surprise and delight me.


On the other hand, I'm surprised at how many people seem to be heavily counting on the "hopeful ending". As you point out, the book takes itself seriously (as a horror comic book ...) To me that is a pretty strong argument AGAINST the "hopeful" ending, or should I say more accurately, the "hoped FOR" ending. Because so many people seem to want and expect and hope for that ending, is exactly the reason I DON'T think it will actually happen. In the final analysis, it lessens the overall horror of the story if (even after suffering great losses) "the good guys finally won". In other words, I don't see this as being a story about heroes and villains, with "good" ultimately triumphing over "evil". The main point of horror, it seems to me, is to make you feel uncomfortable, and providing the expected "the good guys won" ending seems to play too much to the readers' expectations that it will all somehow work out in the end.

DeCarlo Rules

Just got to read AWA #9 today. I'd say it's the best-written issue so far. It also gives you more insight into both Midge's and Reggie's characters than has been the case in 75 years of classic Archie stories, so it's kind of a shame that none of that realy applies to the classic versions of the characters.

It seemed a little odd that Reggie chose to reveal his darkest secrets to Kevin, of all people - given that in an earlier issue it was strongly implied that Reggie is a homophobe - but I guess considering the circumstances, his choices of messengers was pretty limited.

BettyReggie

#19
I just finished reading too.It was great. Reggie is the definitely the star of this issue. It seemed Midge only ran to Reggie when she wanted his help because Moose is so abusive. The scene in the restaurant, tell me if I'm wrong was Midge asking Reggie for money so she can get abortion? That's what I thought. One part of story was really X rated, when Reggie was in bed . And he called out Midge , it looked like dirty. And Kevin looked great . He told the gang what Reggie admitted about killing Hot Dog.
At end I can't believe Sabrina told Reggie if you kill Betty then Midge will come back to life. And he said he will Betty, Poor Archie, they supposed to get married. But Veronica will be thrilled I think to have Betty out of picture.

DeCarlo Rules

#20
Quote from: BettyReggie on May 31, 2016, 06:02:38 PM
I just finished reading too.It was great. Reggie is the definitely the star of this issue. It seemed Midge only ran to Reggie when she wanted his help because Moose is so abusive. The scene in the restaurant, tell me if I'm wrong was Midge asking Reggie for money so she can get abortion? That's what I thought. One part of story was really X rated, when Reggie was in bed . And he called out Midge , it looked like dirty. And Kevin looked great . He told the gang what Reggie admitted about killing Hot Dog.
At end I can't believe Sabrina told Reggie if you kill Betty then Midge will come back to life. And he said he will Betty, Poor Archie, they supposed to get married. But Veronica will be thrilled I think to have Betty out of picture.

That seemed to be what was being implied in the restaurant scene -- and furthermore, it was implied that the baby wasn't Moose's, either! (... and from Reggie's story, we can surmise it isn't his either.) But we'll probably not get any further enlightenment on that particular point.

Now here's something else to think about -- After getting beaten up by Moose, Reggie drives off in anger, and deliberately swerves his car to hit Hot Dog. Then of course the next time we see him is at the Halloween party, so it's unclear whether he ever did wind up giving that $500 to Midge... and if he didn't, and she gets brought back to life, it may be she's just as pregnant as she was before getting infected and turned into a zombie.

Somehow, though... I don't think Reggie is going to wind up being responsible for Betty's death. Not to say that I don't think she'll wind up dying, I just don't think Reggie will ultimately go through with his bargain. In fact, it's easy for me to imagine something like the following happening...

After Reggie comes back to the group, feigning remorse and contriteness in order to effect his plan of killing Betty, he's shunned by everyone except Archie, Betty and Kevin (and possibly, even Archie won't be willing to forgive him). Who is the most likely to reach out to him with forgiveness, sympathy and understanding? Betty Cooper, that's who. When Reggie realizes she's the only one who isn't judging him for his sins, he begins to realize just what a good person she is, and reflecting on his times with Midge, that she only ever really used him for her own purposes. He was planning to go through with his bargain and kill Betty, but now he finds himself falling in love with her...

Thrillho

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 06:26:02 PM

That seemed to be what was being implied in the restaurant scene -- and furthermore, it was implied that the baby wasn't Moose's, either! (... and from Reggie's story, we can surmise it isn't his either.) But we'll probably not get any further enlightenment on that particular point.


I didn't even think of that when I read that scene.  :o I thought she was talking about an abortion for sure but I thought Midge's "none of his business" "nothing to do with him" bit was more of a "my body, my choice" thing. I never considered there might be a third guy in that mess.



There's also the possibility she isn't pregnant but it was just a scare instead.

Quote from: BettyReggie on May 31, 2016, 06:02:38 PM
Poor Archie, they supposed to get married. But Veronica will be thrilled I think to have Betty out of picture.

Do you this Veronica is that awful? Before I was interested in seeing what would happen if Betty died, but not if that means Midge will come back in any form. Yes, I am a hater.


DeCarlo Rules

#22
Quote from: Thrillho on May 31, 2016, 07:14:15 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 06:26:02 PM

That seemed to be what was being implied in the restaurant scene -- and furthermore, it was implied that the baby wasn't Moose's, either! (... and from Reggie's story, we can surmise it isn't his either.) But we'll probably not get any further enlightenment on that particular point.


I didn't even think of that when I read that scene.  :o I thought she was talking about an abortion for sure but I thought Midge's "none of his business" "nothing to do with him" bit was more of a "my body, my choice" thing. I never considered there might be a third guy in that mess.



"What do you THINK, GENIUS? ...actually, it's probably not what you're thinking..."

And what would Midge think Reggie would be thinking, hmm...? That she was pregnant with Moose's child?
But then she realizes it's NOT what he'd be thinking, after all...

Maybe she's not pregnant, but she just isn't completely sure yet. But if she IS, she doesn't want Moose knowing about it...!
Because he has, or HAD, nothing to do with it.

daren

#23
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 05:41:28 PM
It also gives you more insight into both Midge's and Reggie's characters than has been the case in 75 years of classic Archie stories,


How?



Quoteso it's kind of a shame that none of that realy applies to the classic versions of the characters.


Everything important we learn about their characters in this issue (Midge using Reggie when she gets frustrated with Moose, Reggie thinking he might be psychopathic and being in love with Midge) already applies to their characters, it's just that the classic Archie writers always showed it to us instead of telling us. The story where Midge says her parents are divorcing or even the story we talked about earlier where Reggie's mother fawned over his narcissism, I would call those insightful because they gave us new possible reasons for why Midge and Reggie act as they do but theyre reasons most people probably never thought of before, unlike the Afterlife backstory.


Quote[size=0px]After Reggie comes back to the group, feigning remorse and contriteness in order to effect his plan of killing Betty, he's shunned by everyone except Archie, Betty and Kevin (and possibly, even Archie won't be willing to forgive him). Who is the most likely to reach out to him with forgiveness, sympathy and understanding? Betty Cooper, that's who. When Reggie realizes she's the only one who isn't judging him for his sins, he begins to realize just what a good person she is, and reflecting on his times with Midge, that she only ever really used him for her own purposes. He[/size][size=0px] was[/size][size=0px] planning to go through with his bargain and[/size][size=0px] kill[/size][size=0px] Betty, but[/size][size=0px] now[/size][size=0px] he finds himself falling in love with her...[/size]

Yeah Reggie won't be able to make himself kill Betty because she's the hope or holy one, I would say that if Reggie's going to fall in love with someone it'll probably be either Betty or, what do you think--Kevin? See this artist Gabbie Gross, the one who did BettyReggie's avatar and sig, has this whole blog arguing that Reggie in Afterlife is gay or bi and in love with Kevin: http://hireggiebireggie.tumblr.com/post/144892443723/the-case-for-a-bisexual-reggie-in-afterlife-with and she did lots of gay fan arts of the two as a couple including a whole fan comic, you can see them all here: http://gabbiegross.tumblr.com/ This surprised me because she says Betty/Reggie is her favorite Archie couple but Reggie is her favorite Archie character, I guess she likes to ship him with everybody (and girls love slash), she does make a fair argument that Reggie/Kevin might happen in Afterlife if they're looking for new boundaries to cross.

daren

Quote from: Thrillho on May 31, 2016, 07:14:15 PM

Do you this Veronica is that awful? Before I was interested in seeing what would happen if Betty died, but not if that means Midge will come back in any form. Yes, I am a hater.





Where did you get this from, I need this

BettyReggie

I think it would be good if they made Veronica happy that Betty was out of the picture. Because Betty & Veronica's relationship is that really just frenimes. Veroncia Gets what she wants no matter what. It's her way or the High way.

Thrillho

Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 09:52:51 PM
Quote from: Thrillho on May 31, 2016, 07:14:15 PM

Do you this Veronica is that awful? Before I was interested in seeing what would happen if Betty died, but not if that means Midge will come back in any form. Yes, I am a hater.





Where did you get this from, I need this

It's made its way around the interwebz for years, so I just googled "haters gonna hate gif" and it pops right up.

Quote from: BettyReggie on May 31, 2016, 10:00:45 PM
I think it would be good if they made Veronica happy that Betty was out of the picture. Because Betty & Veronica's relationship is that really just frenimes. Veroncia Gets what she wants no matter what. It's her way or the High way.

I guess since it's AU, it's possible but I get the feeling that even in this universe, Veronica enjoys the competition. I've read the scripts and RAS says as much in his notes. Maybe Veronica would have the fleeting satisfaction that comes from "winning" but I think she'd be crushed by the loss of her best friend.

DeCarlo Rules

#27
Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 09:40:08 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 05:41:28 PM
It also gives you more insight into both Midge's and Reggie's characters than has been the case in 75 years of classic Archie stories,


How?

???

... I don't know, maybe it's because in classic Archie stories, we don't get a single clue as to what's going on in Midge's (especially Midge... who, in classic Archie stories is far more of a prop than an actual character) and Reggie's heads. Well, 99% of the time, anyway. I think the story with Harper was probably more characterization (apart from the usual "egotistical/dirty trickster" attributes) than Reggie usually gets about 99% of the time. But the story here pretty much spells it out for you... "Nobody thinks of themselves as a villain." Only in classic Archie stories, we really don't get to see much about how Reggie really sees himself and how he he justifies his behavior in his own mind. On the other hand, I'm sure if I wanted to go back to 1960s stories where Reggie had thought balloons that said things like "EVIL", or "BLACKNESS RISING in my heart", I could probably build a case that (for a period of time, anyway) he DID think of himself as the villain.


Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 09:40:08 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 05:41:28 PM
Quoteso it's kind of a shame that none of that realy applies to the classic versions of the characters.

Everything important we learn about their characters in this issue
(Midge using Reggie when she gets frustrated with Moose, Reggie thinking he might be psychopathic and being in love with Midge) already applies to their characters, it's just that the classic Archie writers always showed it to us instead of telling us. The story where Midge says her parents are divorcing or even the story we talked about earlier where Reggie's mother fawned over his narcissism, I would call those insightful because they gave us new possible reasons for why Midge and Reggie act as they do but theyre reasons most people probably never thought of before, unlike the Afterlife backstory.

QuoteAfter Reggie comes back to the group, feigning remorse and contriteness in order to effect his plan of killing Betty, he's shunned by everyone except Archie, Betty and Kevin (and possibly, even Archie won't be willing to forgive him). Who is the most likely to reach out to him with forgiveness, sympathy and understanding? Betty Cooper, that's who. When Reggie realizes she's the only one who isn't judging him for his sins, he begins to realize just what a good person she is, and reflecting on his times with Midge, that she only ever really used him for her own purposes. He was planning to go through with his bargain and kill Betty, but now he finds himself falling in love with her...

Yeah Reggie won't be able to make himself kill Betty because she's the hope or holy one, I would say that if Reggie's going to fall in love with someone it'll probably be either Betty or, what do you think--Kevin? See this artist Gabbie Gross, the one who did BettyReggie's avatar and sig, has this whole blog arguing that Reggie in Afterlife is gay or bi and in love with Kevin: http://hireggiebireggie.tumblr.com/post/144892443723/the-case-for-a-bisexual-reggie-in-afterlife-with and she did lots of gay fan arts of the two as a couple including a whole fan comic, you can see them all here: http://gabbiegross.tumblr.com/ This surprised me because she says Betty/Reggie is her favorite Archie couple but Reggie is her favorite Archie character, I guess she likes to ship him with everybody (and girls love slash), she does make a fair argument that Reggie/Kevin might happen in Afterlife if they're looking for new boundaries to cross.


You're confusing me, Daren. At first you seem to be arguing that these characters (apart from the more serious tone of AWA) are pretty much the exact same characters as they are in classic Archie stories. Then you start talking about Reggie killing Betty or falling in love with her, or maybe even turning out to be gay... so clearly they're NOT the same characters, because none of those things are "in character" for 'classic Reggie'.

So NO, they are NOT the same characters, although you could say that they're "loosely based" (emphasis on the "loosely") on the classic Archie characters. Therefore the character motivations of the AWA characters do not apply to the classic versions. It might be more accurate to say that they are RA-S's "re-interpretations" of the classic Archie characters. I particular disagree with his take on Veronica, whose behavior in AWA seems way off the beam to me. Not to mention Mr. Lodge, Ginger and Nancy, etc. Some other characters are a little closer. Midge is largely a blank slate anyway, so any writer would be free to fill in the blanks however he so chose, within the very loose framework of the Moose/Midge/Reggie triangle. That said, even in the classic Archie stories there's not a single hint that Midge is just using Reggie like she is in AWA.

daren

Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on June 01, 2016, 12:46:36 AM
Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 09:40:08 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 05:41:28 PM
It also gives you more insight into both Midge's and Reggie's characters than has been the case in 75 years of classic Archie stories,


How?

???

... I don't know, maybe it's because in classic Archie stories, we don't get a single clue as to what's going on in Midge's (especially Midge... who, in classic Archie stories is far more of a prop than an actual character) and Reggie's heads.
QuoteMidge is largely a blank slate anyway, so any writer would be free to fill in the blanks however he so chose, within the very loose framework of the Moose/Midge/Reggie triangle. That said, even in the classic Archie stories there's not a single hint that Midge is just using Reggie like she is in AWA.

There's clues upon clues to their motivations. For instance Reggie stares in the mirror and brags constantly=he's narcissistic. He does mean things=he's sadistic. Add those things together=psychopathic behavior. He chases Midge all the time even though it's dangerous=he loves or at least wants her. Midge is with Moose all the time even though he's stupid and violent=she loves him or at least needs him. She's disgusted with Reggie half the time but open to his advances the other half=she doesn't respect Reggie but needs a break from Moose's stupidity and violence so uses Reggie. There's other possible reasons for their behavior but these are the most obvious, I know I've seen Reggie called psychopathic sometimes and other people on the old board posted about Midge using Reggie to take a break from Midge. It's blatant.




QuoteWell, 99% of the time, anyway. I think the story with Harper was probably more characterization (apart from the usual "egotistical/dirty trickster" attributes) than Reggie usually gets about 99% of the time. But the story here pretty much spells it out for you...
Yeah you can say that again. :P
Quote"Nobody thinks of themselves as a villain." Only in classic Archie stories, we really don't get to see much about how Reggie really sees himself and how he he justifies his behavior in his own mind. On the other hand, I'm sure if I wanted to go back to 1960s stories where Reggie had thought balloons that said things like "EVIL", or "BLACKNESS RISING in my heart", I could probably build a case that (for a period of time, anyway) he DID think of himself as the villain.


There's a lot of stories where Reggie brags about how bad he is. One Christmas story for instance that does the same kind of thing this arc is obviously heading for, sets Reggie up as an a-hole who thinks of himself as just that and tells his friends what a douche he is, then sees a crying little kid and helps him out. The main difference is that Frank Doyle (yeah him again) doesn't tell us this directly in voiceover or present it as an earthshaking revelation, he knows we can figure it out ourselves and that it's sweet but corny (just like Afterlife) so he tells it in six pages and moves on.


In classic Archie we don't get it spelled out for us, we get clues and put it together. That's a good thing. I don't know why you'd want Roberto's exposition in this issue to become part of the classic canon, not only is it not as good as letting us make deductions for ourselves but it would limit Reggie's character.
Quote from: daren on May 31, 2016, 09:40:08 PM
Quote from: DeCarlo Rules on May 31, 2016, 05:41:28 PM
Quoteso it's kind of a shame that none of that realy applies to the classic versions of the characters.

Everything important we learn about their characters in this issue
(Midge using Reggie when she gets frustrated with Moose, Reggie thinking he might be psychopathic and being in love with Midge) already applies to their characters, it's just that the classic Archie writers always showed it to us instead of telling us. The story where Midge says her parents are divorcing or even the story we talked about earlier where Reggie's mother fawned over his narcissism, I would call those insightful because they gave us new possible reasons for why Midge and Reggie act as they do but theyre reasons most people probably never thought of before, unlike the Afterlife backstory.

QuoteAfter Reggie comes back to the group, feigning remorse and contriteness in order to effect his plan of killing Betty, he's shunned by everyone except Archie, Betty and Kevin (and possibly, even Archie won't be willing to forgive him). Who is the most likely to reach out to him with forgiveness, sympathy and understanding? Betty Cooper, that's who. When Reggie realizes she's the only one who isn't judging him for his sins, he begins to realize just what a good person she is, and reflecting on his times with Midge, that she only ever really used him for her own purposes. He was planning to go through with his bargain and kill Betty, but now he finds himself falling in love with her...

Yeah Reggie won't be able to make himself kill Betty because she's the hope or holy one, I would say that if Reggie's going to fall in love with someone it'll probably be either Betty or, what do you think--Kevin? See this artist Gabbie Gross, the one who did BettyReggie's avatar and sig, has this whole blog arguing that Reggie in Afterlife is gay or bi and in love with Kevin: http://hireggiebireggie.tumblr.com/post/144892443723/the-case-for-a-bisexual-reggie-in-afterlife-with and she did lots of gay fan arts of the two as a couple including a whole fan comic, you can see them all here: http://gabbiegross.tumblr.com/ This surprised me because she says Betty/Reggie is her favorite Archie couple but Reggie is her favorite Archie character, I guess she likes to ship him with everybody (and girls love slash), she does make a fair argument that Reggie/Kevin might happen in Afterlife if they're looking for new boundaries to cross.
You're confusing me, Daren. At first you seem to be arguing that these characters (apart from the more serious tone of AWA) are pretty much the exact same characters as they are in classic Archie stories. Then you start talking about Reggie killing Betty or falling in love with her, or maybe even turning out to be gay... so clearly they're NOT the same characters, because none of those things are "in character" for 'classic Reggie'.
I said in this issue not in the whole series. Of course Roberto went strange places with the characters earlier and might do it again by making Reggie gay, I don't care if he does or not and I don't see him as gay in canon but this is AU so maybe theyll surprise us.

DeCarlo Rules

Quote from: daren on June 06, 2016, 02:01:47 AM
In classic Archie we don't get it spelled out for us, we get clues and put it together. That's a good thing. I don't know why you'd want Roberto's exposition in this issue to become part of the classic canon, not only is it not as good as letting us make deductions for ourselves but it would limit Reggie's character.

I don't. It's HIS version of Reggie. I'm merely pointing out that that in classic Archie you don't get a view of the interior POV of how Reggie sees himself (and FAR fewer clues to go on, as applied to Midge). Apart from being somewhat inconsistent in and of themselves, depending on which stories about Reggie from which time periods you pick and choose from, you can build a picture of a couple of different Reggies, by grouping certain classic Archie stories together to build your case. In one version, for example, a bunch of different stories reinforce the idea that the egotism and rotteness is a sham (Christmas stories where Reggie doesn't want the gang to discover he's really doing good deeds in secret, because it will ruin his reputation as king of the a-holes). In other stories the rottenness is deep-down and genuine.

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